@Wheatly Firstly, the agreement is worldwide according to MS, and I've no doubt is all properly set out.
Secondly, it does affect the appeal, as new evidence can be looked at in the CAT - particularly as MS can point to it being the kind of remedy they were open to.
Thirdly, the EU's decisions often have an effect worldwide - they have forced numerous remedies on Microsoft, Facebook and Google that have had a global impact - it's unlikely that the UK would be carved out of such a deal as it's cost prohibitive to do so, and if the deal applies in the UK I imagine any breach would occur in all regions so be subject to a joint investigation by the different regulators.
If the CMA were to come out and go "since leaving the EU, we're not big enough to manage such enforcement action" then it pretty much admits Brexit is a failure and they'd likely find the Tories passing laws to scrap them and replace them with a new body - at best, it suggests they need to work closely with the EU regulator still which is a win for this deal.
@Wheatly Yes but unlike the lazy CMA, the EU will enforce it and have a history of enforcing such decisions - plus I imagine it will be signed in binding documents.
So it can certainly be used in the arguments against the CMA - the fact they couldn't be bothered to ensure remedies were stuck to doesn't mean such remedies weren't sufficient, and that a regulator would refuse to enforce any provisions is pretty weird.
It does strike me as the CMA being annoyed by the Compare the Market decision not going their way, so saying "we can't fine people as they appeal" so deciding they don't want to be an enforcer - which can't be a sustainable path given it's their legal duty...
@Wheatly Also, with regards to a company swallowing up an emerging market, this deal specifically stops that.
When many of Microsoft's biggest games will be on all their competitors, why would you sign up for XCloud when you could go with Luna or PSNow that may have some exclusive games plus CoD etc.?
They're literally inviting competition in to the market rather than trying to shut it out
@Wheatly The proroguing of Parliament did have to clarify a point of law which hadn't previously been tested though, but agreed it's likely not going to apply here.
My "open for business" comment is more about why I think the CMA will come under pressure to do a deal of some kind - given a minister can already overrule the CMA under the recent law change, they are likely aware of Brexit Britain's pretty poor world standing and sounding anti-business isn't a great thing for our national economic welfare which is one of reasons for overruling.
I completely agree about not knowing how judges will act, but we do know one judge in this CAT panel is a patents special FOSS Patents knows, and his judgments have generally been balanced and look at harms as well as what remediations have been offered.
Finally, that figure for the UK cloud market was picked out of thin air by the CMA based on dodgy numbers (for example how they count Ultimate subscribers and XCloud players) - it's likely a smaller market right now (given XCloud can support less than 10k concurrent UK users) and both its size and the CMA's faulty figures can factor into the appeal.
@Tharsman Agreed, that's what I meant about them acting as the "retailer" - either the player buys the game elsewhere or buys through them (like Stadia had).
I wouldn't be surprised if there is some caveat for subscription services too, say "a fair market rate per play" or something to ensure new entrants into the market can offer such a thing - if not, maybe they can offer the CMA that as the sweetener so CMA can say "deal approved as we got a major concession!"
@StonyKL The price of this deal won't affect Game Pass subs, as it's simple exchanging cash for an asset of similar value on the balance sheet.
It's more MS getting ready for the upcoming content war with other big providers - whether in cloud or just entertainment in general - and I suspect we won't see too much in terms of price rises above inflation until the market is more mature and growth has slowed down.
Given PS Plus are currently adding more games every month and likely have converted many PS Plus Essential players to higher tiers, Xbox will likely be feeling the heat and hold off any rises anytime soon...
@Wheatly I think rationality can be called into question when they're blocking attempts to compete with a high-end console market leader that doesn't place nice - all because of some future market that may not even exist in time, and is tiny at the moment.
For all we know, neural connectivity will have a sudden breakthrough and we'll all play games connected to our phones with cloud gaming antiquated - for a bet on a future market, they're hurting a much bigger existing one.
That, plus the "open for business" UK angle, as well as the obvious remedies that Microsoft were willing to agree to (if not then, they have now - and that will be taken into account as it's common sense to include it which means a judge will) are definite grounds for rationality arguments.
With regards to it being returned to the CMA, it's only a courtesy - the CMA are given instruction and are not allowed to do anything that breaches the CAT's ruling, as their judgment is considered higher.
And our courts, short of Parliament passing new laws, are the ultimate arbiter of both our laws and their meaning - they can and will find against bodies if they find misuse of process or clearly fault decision making - they did so when telling Boris Johnson he illegally prorogued Parliament for example.
I'm not sure it'll even go to CAT though, with today's announcement and the embarrassment for the UK government I suspect the CMA will push for some minor "win" they can trumpet as an extension of today's deal that they "secured" and will change their mind - which they have the full power to do.
As for quango, it's just a term used for any "independent" body in the UK nowadays - given the UK government where Parliament is supreme can decide to do anything it wants with those bodies.
@Kaloudz If you're in the UK, BBC Parliament will no doubt have the full thing, with the news channels dipping in and out.
It might be available on Gov.UK or the BBC News website too.
I suspect it may be up to half of it given they'll want to know why the CMA came up with a different result to the EU - but I suspect some will also just be generic competition questions and about other markets they regulate.
@UltimateOtaku91 Yep they definitely need to work on controller technology.
For example the Xbox Wireless Protocol that Xbox controllers use when connected to Xbox consoles or their own dongles can support many more controllers than Bluetooth and have higher throughput and lower latency - so a Project Keystone device could use it and perhaps help with that issue...
@Wheatly New evidence such as this deal can be presented - the CAT is a legal tribunal in the UK led by judges, and in our system a judge has huge sway to decide the bounds of their own case.
In addition, Microsoft only have to have even hinted at a deal such as this one in communications with the CMA, and they can show this deal as being available but the CMA irrationally not wanting it.
Finally, yes it can still be taken to court, as nearly any dispute or decision can be - and there new evidence can be evaluated and remedies / settlements are encouraged.
The CMA is definitely not popular with the UK government for this decision at the moment, as it goes against the whole "open for business" marketing - and the two sides trumpeting their investment in the EU in the media about today's decision will not please the government either.
And despite being "independent", in reality any quango in the UK is only as independent as the government allows it to be - laws can easily be introduced to amend their powers, and indeed a new law was passed recently that gave ministers more power to intervene in decisions - which can be used as a threat when they're suggesting they'll provide more "steer" to the CMA.
@UltimateOtaku91 Yep it may definitely make for an interesting battlefield, where cloud becomes more of an extension of PC for now rather than consoles - where exclusives don't exist as much.
It only covers ABK's "popular" games - I do wonder if that's a fixed list or by some metric, so whether it may cover some new ABK game that ends up being hugely popular.
I can honestly say though if both Sony and Xbox manage to get cloud to a position where it's as fast and reliable as a console, we may all win as while I love my consoles and PC they do cost a lot to keep current...
@Kaloudz Yep tomorrow's committee hearing will be interesting, and when hearings finally start with the CAT the CMA will likely be on the defensive or will announce some minor tweak to this deal that they can trumpet as a win.
A recent Motorola case where they've argued "significant overreach" by the CMA, Apple winning against the CMA based on a legal misunderstanding and the CMA head's own previous employer joining the battle against her all suggest the odds are stacked against the CMA now.
And that's before we even get to the UK government having been embarrassed by the CMA due to it conflicting with the "UK open for business" campaign and saying they intend to provide "steer" to the CMA...
@UltimateOtaku91 Correct, any popular ABK games that Sony wished to licence for cloud, Microsoft will have to licence to them.
While they say free licence acquisition, they don't actually say "free licence" so I suspect you still have to pay the usual percentage any retailer does (or a bulk licence or per-play licence for a subscription based service) but I very much doubt Microsoft would use unfair pricing as that would open them up to remediations.
I don't think Microsoft have an issue with this anyway - most of the last 2 months' PS Plus additions have been Bethesda
@Wheatly Not exactly - firstly, the licence agreement made here is a perfect showing of the fact the CMA didn't rationally review potential mitigations - so this deal being worldwide actually gives new facts for the case.
The CMA has been found to have misunderstood its remit, exceeded its powers or been irrational when assessing mitigations in a few cases at CAT including Compare the Market and BMW / VW, and they were overruled
Secondly, that's only the requirement for the CAT appeal. If necessary, the decision can be appealed in the High Court (as happened in MyFerryLink) where those limits do not apply - the court can rule against the CMA on a simple basis of law.
Don't see how this leaves the CMA with a leg to stand on - given it removes their biggest argument that Microsoft could use ABK to block "future unspecified" new competitors...
Instead, those new entrants can guarantee they'll have access to at least one big publisher's biggest games so have a decent library to start with...
@UltimateOtaku91 @pip_muzz FTC has to go to court to block, and given the pro-business behaviour of US courts it's unlikely they'll have an easy ride - particularly as the head of the FTC has made clear she wants to go beyond the agency's official remit.
CMA will be the CAT then High Court if CAT doesn't overrule, could eventually reach the Supreme Court. But given the UK government's position this week I suspect it may not go that far...
Good news, hopefully the CMA can now be overturned by tribunal given the UK government have publicly backed less regulatory action and the CMA has to appear before a Parliament committee tomorrow, then Microsoft can close the deal while fighting the FTC in the courts.
In the meantime, Xbox can start to plan a huge marketing push and a proper management strategy to integrate everything - and we all benefit from Game Pass.
Hopefully it will finally mean Xbox can bring the competition this generation, rather than Sony getting everything their own way, becoming greedy and playing it safe...
Horror games aren't so much my thing, but Dordogne looks the kind of sweet little game I'll probably give a go given it's risk-free thanks to Game Pass.
One of the last ones was Beacon Pines which turned out to be great
So his complaint is that people use it as a demo service, and didn't find his game engaging enough to stick with it?
I'm one of those who tried it - I'd never have bought it, and the hour or two I spent with it were OK but not really the kind of game I enjoy.
So I was happy for him to get his Game Pass money, and for me to think "not for me" but decent enough that I might give his next game a go.
It's a similar thing with demos - I've still not bought SteelRising despite loving the developer as I'm really not sure it's my kind of game being more combat than RPG, but if they released a demo or put it on Game Pass, I could try it and see.
Until then, I'm waiting for a major discount, so I'm not left annoyed by having wasted money on SteelRising - which is probably how I'd have felt if I'd have paid £30 for Somerville and likely not even have tried his next game...
@Kaloudz Ouch - I played Mafia 1 and 2 originally back in the day, 1 was one of my favourite games ever (that ending!) but 2 I found a bit less fun.
I've got the remake of 1 on PC from Humble Bundle but wanted to give it a go on my XSX given it's more powerful than my PC - but yeah while 2 is decent I think you've already played the best one
@Ryu_Niiyama That's my fear as Xbox needs to be able to stop playing meek and mild and really focus on getting games out and marketing etc.
So if it's going to be years, I want the EU to reject - but it's possible that we get EU approval next week and an update on the appeal to CAT as on urgent matters they have started a hearing within 3 weeks before and they generally don't take long.
It's a long shot, but maybe by the end of next week or the next few weeks we see enough positive news that Microsoft can move to close the deal ahead of the FTC court hearing, as they've said they'd do...
@Kaloudz Yes the higher tiers on Plus, although funnily enough a majority of the additions the last few months have been Bethesda.
They do seem to get games that never come anywhere near Game Pass too, such as the Mafia trilogy - if I didn't dislike their consumer practices so much and had a PS5 I'd probably be subscribed but I can't be bothered to play anything on my slow old PS4 anymore!
As for Ubi, given they add all the Anno DLC which like the Sims or Crusader Kings DLCs apparently sells well, I think big new games will be on it as the big draw.
I imagine they're also assuming the constant DLC and events in their bigger games plus the long playtime will keep people subscribed.
Who knows with the way inflation is going and Sony upping game prices, maybe we'll eventually come to see Ubisoft Plus as a steal!
@Kaloudz Agreed, I'm thinking of waiting till I can try AC Mirage and Settlers New Allies on Xbox on it, then see.
At that price though I doubt I'd stay subscribed long, they need to do some offers as they just don't have enough games coming each month (saying that, Game Pass has had a thinner 2023 so far, many more games leaving than being added while PS Plus adds 20+ every month...)
It is a truly amazing feat to have got it running on a base Xbox One, and actually makes me think they may achieve it even on a Switch which I'd have assumed would have been witchcraft...
@somnambulance I'm also kinda hoping it goes through to give a big boost to Game Pass this year, to tide us over during the quiet times...
It's almost that between what was expected to be a rush of first party games and PS Plus ramping up and taking a lot of the deals, there's just not as much available to be added to Game Pass this year - often more being removed.
While Bethesda games in particular are being used to bolster PS Plus which is having much bigger monthly updates.
Fingers crossed a big Activision drop like we had for Bethesda would boost the numbers a bit until this quiet patch is over (or I'm consumed playing Starfield for 6 months)!
And now Bloomberg is corroborating it - so it's likely even if the result isn't correct, the date of release likely is as they've probably been given a heads up of a media conference time...
Reuters are a big reputable source for EU news so while I'm not tempting fate (given the CMA's crazy cloud reasoning) it's looking slightly more probable.
Guess that'll then put pressure on the appeal against the CMA (they've got a 66% win rate but that's often against smaller firms) and the court fight with the FTC...
@PsBoxSwitchOwner @BrilliantBill Yep good points, I think I still have a picture of old Activision in my head that was a true behemoth and not just because of one game.
EA I more play their own IPs (Mass Effect, Dragon Age) and less of the licenced ones outside Star Wars so forget just how many EA Sports games there are
Given I thought CoD a bigger seller than FIFA, I'm surprised that EA are bigger on Xbox than Activision.
It does likely highlight the power of that CoD marketing deal and exclusive content that Sony has, and why they're so desperate to protect it.
Happy for EA though, Play is a nice bonus on Game Pass and they've put a lot more effort into single player experiences recently with the Jedi games - and the Mass Effect Legendary Edition was a good example of how to do a remaster / remake well and at a fair price...
He's 100% right, the 360 generation started online gaming properly, but it wasn't as big as the next generation.
The next generation it became mainstream - while my uni friends stayed on Xbox, I had to get a PS4 too if I wanted to play with anyone from home or work as most people swapped to PlayStation due to that disastrous One launch.
By now, those gamers are tied into their friendship groups on PSN, have big digital catalogues from Plus etc and most of all want to see the end of some of the exclusive games they've started the series of - God of War and Horizon for example.
I've never really liked Sony's games outside of Spider Man so wasn't such an issue for me to go XSX only and not get a PS5 too.
Many of them have become quite anti-Xbox but some may get it eventually as a second console - but I haven't met anyone who'd swap their main console.
It really was the worst possible generation to lose
It's amazing that they've managed to get this going on a base Xbox One - yes the load times are a little longer and the population density is lowered, but it's a staggering achievement
I'm glad he's taken the criticism and accepted changes are made.
I'm still pretty excited for a number of the big games Xbox have coming up, like Starfield, Avowed and Forza Motorsport - and being a fan of Western RPGs I know I'm going to be well catered for.
My main concern was the fact that if they didn't start to hit the big AAA must-have games (which are often not actually my favourites, usually action-adventure instead of RPG) they'd start to lose market share even more and lose more games to PlayStation etc.
But he's addressed it, and I'm happy to wait and see what the June showcase looks like - and how the Activision appeal / EU ruling goes, and if badly what the alternative plan is.
Apparently the game doesn't pause even in single player when you go into the menu, one of my biggest annoyances with live service games.
Clearly that's what this was meant to be, to earn cash for independent Bethesda - rather than stripping it out, this should have been iced in favour of a proper single player game, and come back to afterwards to see if it could be salvaged as the next project.
I'll probably give it a try but having just finished Hogwarts I'm fearing this won't compare well...
Urgh I know the idea with Game Pass and having big daddy Microsoft picking up the tab is that studios can take risks, but that should probably happen in the second or third Xbox exclusive, or using a smaller team.
The first ones should be more of what they know, most likely Dishonored 3 or Prey 2 - with this put on ice after the takeover till after that game with specialists from other studios coming in to help this one later.
Xbox can't afford too many first party games that aren't polished, fun and something everyone wants to play - HiFi Rush, Forza Horizon 5 and Pentiment are more the quality Xbox should be aiming for consistently.
I know this isn't bad for scores, but Sony first party would consider this set of reviews an absolute disaster and Xbox need to push for similar standards.
Really thinking they need to set up an internal team of Coalition, Playground and ID staff who go studio to studio helping with optimisation and maybe some Obsidian too to help with fun and story.
Starfield for example needs to be practically perfect given the expectations on it, as to be honest should all first party games - the smaller experimental ones can be Game Previews or being smaller should be able to be tested fully like Pentiment and HiFi Rush appeared to be.
@tallythwack Wow you're using physical sales charts?
I don't actually know anyone who buys physical any more - why wait for a delivery or go to a store when you can have it pre-loaded for release day, given most games now need a Day 1 patch anyway or have hardly anything on the disc?
PlayStation generally have about 70% of the market anyway so you'd expect them to have a majority of sales - it's exactly the reason the ABK deal or some version of playing dirty like Sony does is needed this generation.
I imagine you'll disagree with that though as you're clearly not really into Xbox anyway
Now just got to hope they plaster it over TV and the internet - they do appear to have stepped up the marketing budget again as I'm seeing Redfall on my Samsung TV's menu bar (normally see TV stuff, GTA5 updates or Sony marketing).
Sony have been outspending them 3 to 1 on marketing recently (2020 figures around the release of the PS5 and XSX|S) and so their mindshare in the UK at least seems enormous - PlayStation is practically used for games console in the same way Hoover is used for vacuums.
Fingers crossed between this, the games coming this year and next, and the ABK deal outcome (whether it gets across the line or it doesn't and they go nuclear on Sony) that Xbox is finally back on track...
@tallythwack I do buy games, even Hogwarts Legacy although the PlayStation exclusive rubbish really made me not want to.
I also buy games that I love from Game Pass - clearly though you're not really interested in the merits of a service that allows you to try new genres or games you might otherwise not risk, given you clearly don't like indies and I'd suggest are probably not a Game Pass / Xbox gamer
@Skedaddle Yes because I didn't specify first or second party.
I mean PlayStation has many more games released for it each year - like 5000 compared to about 3000 for Xbox, according to people like Jez Corden and Jason Schrier.
Many of those are Japanese or indies that Sony locked down first, but there are too many games where if Xbox gets it first, PlayStation is practically guaranteed a version later (Call of the Sea, The Medium etc) while the reverse often isn't true - there's too many games where there's a PlayStation version and even a Switch version but no Xbox.
If Microsoft lose this deal, we need 360-era, no more being "nice" Xbox - they must be ruthless as they're way behind on console numbers and if this generation ends the same as last more publishers won't make the effort to release on Xbox unless MS pay them significantly extra.
Then less games = less reasons to buy Xbox, so less reason for publishers to release on it, so it becomes a death spiral.
I really hope that doesn't happen, and via either this deal or "mean and green" Xbox can get back to closer to 50/50 split in high end consoles, but the sales figures and wall-to-wall marketing of PlayStation is a worry - Sony often outspend Xbox 3 to 1 on marketing this generation which very much affects the mindshare.
As if Xbox lose this deal but play nice, they'll lose and we'll all have to upgrade our PCs as Sony will become even more anti-competitive and the PS5 games / consoles become extortionately expensive
Got to say, I'll be staggered if they get Hogwarts Legacy running well on Xbox One - it'll be a feat of technical magic as it feels like a game that pushes even the XSX...
Yep these are very good - like the inclusion of the Quality mode on the XSX as with me having the reactions / eyes of a sloth I prefer getting a pretty picture over 60hz.
So shows me the shadow, lighting and background differences that I'll get to enjoy so thanks very much!
Now just need to hurry up and finish the first game...
Imagine I'll wait for the full previews - The Medium looked good in videos like this, but when playing it the fixed-camera position was a bit awkward and made it much easier to be "pretty" (it's how Detroit: Become Human looked so amazing on a PS4).
Bloober do good work, but usually a little janky or not-quite-polished-enough - it's why I was surprised they were given the Silent Hill remake
Comments 1,046
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly Firstly, the agreement is worldwide according to MS, and I've no doubt is all properly set out.
Secondly, it does affect the appeal, as new evidence can be looked at in the CAT - particularly as MS can point to it being the kind of remedy they were open to.
Thirdly, the EU's decisions often have an effect worldwide - they have forced numerous remedies on Microsoft, Facebook and Google that have had a global impact - it's unlikely that the UK would be carved out of such a deal as it's cost prohibitive to do so, and if the deal applies in the UK I imagine any breach would occur in all regions so be subject to a joint investigation by the different regulators.
If the CMA were to come out and go "since leaving the EU, we're not big enough to manage such enforcement action" then it pretty much admits Brexit is a failure and they'd likely find the Tories passing laws to scrap them and replace them with a new body - at best, it suggests they need to work closely with the EU regulator still which is a win for this deal.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly Yes but unlike the lazy CMA, the EU will enforce it and have a history of enforcing such decisions - plus I imagine it will be signed in binding documents.
So it can certainly be used in the arguments against the CMA - the fact they couldn't be bothered to ensure remedies were stuck to doesn't mean such remedies weren't sufficient, and that a regulator would refuse to enforce any provisions is pretty weird.
It does strike me as the CMA being annoyed by the Compare the Market decision not going their way, so saying "we can't fine people as they appeal" so deciding they don't want to be an enforcer - which can't be a sustainable path given it's their legal duty...
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly Yes but COD will be ALL the cloud platforms because of the EU deal.
That I think is the key point now, that new entrants will have an edge because they will have COD plus any exclusives they've bought / brought in.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly Also, with regards to a company swallowing up an emerging market, this deal specifically stops that.
When many of Microsoft's biggest games will be on all their competitors, why would you sign up for XCloud when you could go with Luna or PSNow that may have some exclusive games plus CoD etc.?
They're literally inviting competition in to the market rather than trying to shut it out
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly The proroguing of Parliament did have to clarify a point of law which hadn't previously been tested though, but agreed it's likely not going to apply here.
My "open for business" comment is more about why I think the CMA will come under pressure to do a deal of some kind - given a minister can already overrule the CMA under the recent law change, they are likely aware of Brexit Britain's pretty poor world standing and sounding anti-business isn't a great thing for our national economic welfare which is one of reasons for overruling.
I completely agree about not knowing how judges will act, but we do know one judge in this CAT panel is a patents special FOSS Patents knows, and his judgments have generally been balanced and look at harms as well as what remediations have been offered.
Finally, that figure for the UK cloud market was picked out of thin air by the CMA based on dodgy numbers (for example how they count Ultimate subscribers and XCloud players) - it's likely a smaller market right now (given XCloud can support less than 10k concurrent UK users) and both its size and the CMA's faulty figures can factor into the appeal.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Tharsman Agreed, that's what I meant about them acting as the "retailer" - either the player buys the game elsewhere or buys through them (like Stadia had).
I wouldn't be surprised if there is some caveat for subscription services too, say "a fair market rate per play" or something to ensure new entrants into the market can offer such a thing - if not, maybe they can offer the CMA that as the sweetener so CMA can say "deal approved as we got a major concession!"
Re: Xbox's Activision Blizzard Deal Officially Approved In Europe
@StonyKL The price of this deal won't affect Game Pass subs, as it's simple exchanging cash for an asset of similar value on the balance sheet.
It's more MS getting ready for the upcoming content war with other big providers - whether in cloud or just entertainment in general - and I suspect we won't see too much in terms of price rises above inflation until the market is more mature and growth has slowed down.
Given PS Plus are currently adding more games every month and likely have converted many PS Plus Essential players to higher tiers, Xbox will likely be feeling the heat and hold off any rises anytime soon...
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly I think rationality can be called into question when they're blocking attempts to compete with a high-end console market leader that doesn't place nice - all because of some future market that may not even exist in time, and is tiny at the moment.
For all we know, neural connectivity will have a sudden breakthrough and we'll all play games connected to our phones with cloud gaming antiquated - for a bet on a future market, they're hurting a much bigger existing one.
That, plus the "open for business" UK angle, as well as the obvious remedies that Microsoft were willing to agree to (if not then, they have now - and that will be taken into account as it's common sense to include it which means a judge will) are definite grounds for rationality arguments.
With regards to it being returned to the CMA, it's only a courtesy - the CMA are given instruction and are not allowed to do anything that breaches the CAT's ruling, as their judgment is considered higher.
And our courts, short of Parliament passing new laws, are the ultimate arbiter of both our laws and their meaning - they can and will find against bodies if they find misuse of process or clearly fault decision making - they did so when telling Boris Johnson he illegally prorogued Parliament for example.
I'm not sure it'll even go to CAT though, with today's announcement and the embarrassment for the UK government I suspect the CMA will push for some minor "win" they can trumpet as an extension of today's deal that they "secured" and will change their mind - which they have the full power to do.
As for quango, it's just a term used for any "independent" body in the UK nowadays - given the UK government where Parliament is supreme can decide to do anything it wants with those bodies.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Kaloudz If you're in the UK, BBC Parliament will no doubt have the full thing, with the news channels dipping in and out.
It might be available on Gov.UK or the BBC News website too.
I suspect it may be up to half of it given they'll want to know why the CMA came up with a different result to the EU - but I suspect some will also just be generic competition questions and about other markets they regulate.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@UltimateOtaku91 Yep they definitely need to work on controller technology.
For example the Xbox Wireless Protocol that Xbox controllers use when connected to Xbox consoles or their own dongles can support many more controllers than Bluetooth and have higher throughput and lower latency - so a Project Keystone device could use it and perhaps help with that issue...
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly New evidence such as this deal can be presented - the CAT is a legal tribunal in the UK led by judges, and in our system a judge has huge sway to decide the bounds of their own case.
In addition, Microsoft only have to have even hinted at a deal such as this one in communications with the CMA, and they can show this deal as being available but the CMA irrationally not wanting it.
Finally, yes it can still be taken to court, as nearly any dispute or decision can be - and there new evidence can be evaluated and remedies / settlements are encouraged.
The CMA is definitely not popular with the UK government for this decision at the moment, as it goes against the whole "open for business" marketing - and the two sides trumpeting their investment in the EU in the media about today's decision will not please the government either.
And despite being "independent", in reality any quango in the UK is only as independent as the government allows it to be - laws can easily be introduced to amend their powers, and indeed a new law was passed recently that gave ministers more power to intervene in decisions - which can be used as a threat when they're suggesting they'll provide more "steer" to the CMA.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@UltimateOtaku91 Yep it may definitely make for an interesting battlefield, where cloud becomes more of an extension of PC for now rather than consoles - where exclusives don't exist as much.
It only covers ABK's "popular" games - I do wonder if that's a fixed list or by some metric, so whether it may cover some new ABK game that ends up being hugely popular.
I can honestly say though if both Sony and Xbox manage to get cloud to a position where it's as fast and reliable as a console, we may all win as while I love my consoles and PC they do cost a lot to keep current...
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Kaloudz Yep tomorrow's committee hearing will be interesting, and when hearings finally start with the CAT the CMA will likely be on the defensive or will announce some minor tweak to this deal that they can trumpet as a win.
A recent Motorola case where they've argued "significant overreach" by the CMA, Apple winning against the CMA based on a legal misunderstanding and the CMA head's own previous employer joining the battle against her all suggest the odds are stacked against the CMA now.
And that's before we even get to the UK government having been embarrassed by the CMA due to it conflicting with the "UK open for business" campaign and saying they intend to provide "steer" to the CMA...
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@UltimateOtaku91 Correct, any popular ABK games that Sony wished to licence for cloud, Microsoft will have to licence to them.
While they say free licence acquisition, they don't actually say "free licence" so I suspect you still have to pay the usual percentage any retailer does (or a bulk licence or per-play licence for a subscription based service) but I very much doubt Microsoft would use unfair pricing as that would open them up to remediations.
I don't think Microsoft have an issue with this anyway - most of the last 2 months' PS Plus additions have been Bethesda
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
@Wheatly Not exactly - firstly, the licence agreement made here is a perfect showing of the fact the CMA didn't rationally review potential mitigations - so this deal being worldwide actually gives new facts for the case.
The CMA has been found to have misunderstood its remit, exceeded its powers or been irrational when assessing mitigations in a few cases at CAT including Compare the Market and BMW / VW, and they were overruled
Secondly, that's only the requirement for the CAT appeal. If necessary, the decision can be appealed in the High Court (as happened in MyFerryLink) where those limits do not apply - the court can rule against the CMA on a simple basis of law.
Re: EU Makes Microsoft 'Automatically License' ActiBlizz Cloud Games Post-Merger
Don't see how this leaves the CMA with a leg to stand on - given it removes their biggest argument that Microsoft could use ABK to block "future unspecified" new competitors...
Instead, those new entrants can guarantee they'll have access to at least one big publisher's biggest games so have a decent library to start with...
Re: COD Going Xbox Exclusive 'Would Not Significantly Harm Competition', Says EU
@RadioHedgeFund We've not seen a Final Fantasy game since FFXV anyway - and to be honest I played 7 Remake on PS4 and wasn't that taken.
Additionally, just as PS fans like to say about Xbox games - I just need a gaming PC for it
I've pretty much taken it as a given that Square are Sony's now, even if they don't bother with the expense of a takeover...
Re: COD Going Xbox Exclusive 'Would Not Significantly Harm Competition', Says EU
Sounds a lot more sensible conclusion than the hysterical reaction there's been from some corners...
Re: Xbox's Activision Blizzard Deal Officially Approved In Europe
@UltimateOtaku91 @pip_muzz FTC has to go to court to block, and given the pro-business behaviour of US courts it's unlikely they'll have an easy ride - particularly as the head of the FTC has made clear she wants to go beyond the agency's official remit.
CMA will be the CAT then High Court if CAT doesn't overrule, could eventually reach the Supreme Court. But given the UK government's position this week I suspect it may not go that far...
Re: Xbox's Activision Blizzard Deal Officially Approved In Europe
@Snake_V5 Lol that's a damn lie and you know it.
Search Compare the Market CMA overturned, MyFerryLink CMA, BMW and VW CMA overturned, for a few examples.
Stop spouting rubbish as facts just to troll.
Re: Xbox's Activision Blizzard Deal Officially Approved In Europe
Good news, hopefully the CMA can now be overturned by tribunal given the UK government have publicly backed less regulatory action and the CMA has to appear before a Parliament committee tomorrow, then Microsoft can close the deal while fighting the FTC in the courts.
In the meantime, Xbox can start to plan a huge marketing push and a proper management strategy to integrate everything - and we all benefit from Game Pass.
Hopefully it will finally mean Xbox can bring the competition this generation, rather than Sony getting everything their own way, becoming greedy and playing it safe...
Re: Talking Point: Are You Still Playing Forza Horizon 5 In 2023?
Yep just been enjoying the rally expansion - the McRae / Grist starter car is actually more fun in many ways than the supercars.
I drop out for a month sometimes, but it's probably one of the most chilled out games you can play...
Re: Xbox Game Pass June 2023: First Two Games Confirmed Following Launch Date Shift
Horror games aren't so much my thing, but Dordogne looks the kind of sweet little game I'll probably give a go given it's risk-free thanks to Game Pass.
One of the last ones was Beacon Pines which turned out to be great
Re: Indie Dev Prefers Selling Games Outright Despite 'A Pretty Good Deal' With Xbox Game Pass
So his complaint is that people use it as a demo service, and didn't find his game engaging enough to stick with it?
I'm one of those who tried it - I'd never have bought it, and the hour or two I spent with it were OK but not really the kind of game I enjoy.
So I was happy for him to get his Game Pass money, and for me to think "not for me" but decent enough that I might give his next game a go.
It's a similar thing with demos - I've still not bought SteelRising despite loving the developer as I'm really not sure it's my kind of game being more combat than RPG, but if they released a demo or put it on Game Pass, I could try it and see.
Until then, I'm waiting for a major discount, so I'm not left annoyed by having wasted money on SteelRising - which is probably how I'd have felt if I'd have paid £30 for Somerville and likely not even have tried his next game...
Re: Talking Point: Have You Tried Ubisoft Plus On Xbox Yet?
@Kaloudz Ouch - I played Mafia 1 and 2 originally back in the day, 1 was one of my favourite games ever (that ending!) but 2 I found a bit less fun.
I've got the remake of 1 on PC from Humble Bundle but wanted to give it a go on my XSX given it's more powerful than my PC - but yeah while 2 is decent I think you've already played the best one
Re: EU 'Expected' To Approve Xbox Activision Blizzard Deal Next Week
@Ryu_Niiyama That's my fear as Xbox needs to be able to stop playing meek and mild and really focus on getting games out and marketing etc.
So if it's going to be years, I want the EU to reject - but it's possible that we get EU approval next week and an update on the appeal to CAT as on urgent matters they have started a hearing within 3 weeks before and they generally don't take long.
It's a long shot, but maybe by the end of next week or the next few weeks we see enough positive news that Microsoft can move to close the deal ahead of the FTC court hearing, as they've said they'd do...
Re: Talking Point: Have You Tried Ubisoft Plus On Xbox Yet?
@Kaloudz Yes the higher tiers on Plus, although funnily enough a majority of the additions the last few months have been Bethesda.
They do seem to get games that never come anywhere near Game Pass too, such as the Mafia trilogy - if I didn't dislike their consumer practices so much and had a PS5 I'd probably be subscribed but I can't be bothered to play anything on my slow old PS4 anymore!
As for Ubi, given they add all the Anno DLC which like the Sims or Crusader Kings DLCs apparently sells well, I think big new games will be on it as the big draw.
I imagine they're also assuming the constant DLC and events in their bigger games plus the long playtime will keep people subscribed.
Who knows with the way inflation is going and Sony upping game prices, maybe we'll eventually come to see Ubisoft Plus as a steal!
Re: Talking Point: Have You Tried Ubisoft Plus On Xbox Yet?
@Kaloudz Agreed, I'm thinking of waiting till I can try AC Mirage and Settlers New Allies on Xbox on it, then see.
At that price though I doubt I'd stay subscribed long, they need to do some offers as they just don't have enough games coming each month (saying that, Game Pass has had a thinner 2023 so far, many more games leaving than being added while PS Plus adds 20+ every month...)
Re: Video: Digital Foundry Compares Last-Gen Hogwarts Legacy To Xbox Series S
It is a truly amazing feat to have got it running on a base Xbox One, and actually makes me think they may achieve it even on a Switch which I'd have assumed would have been witchcraft...
Re: EU 'Expected' To Approve Xbox Activision Blizzard Deal Next Week
@somnambulance I'm also kinda hoping it goes through to give a big boost to Game Pass this year, to tide us over during the quiet times...
It's almost that between what was expected to be a rush of first party games and PS Plus ramping up and taking a lot of the deals, there's just not as much available to be added to Game Pass this year - often more being removed.
While Bethesda games in particular are being used to bolster PS Plus which is having much bigger monthly updates.
Fingers crossed a big Activision drop like we had for Bethesda would boost the numbers a bit until this quiet patch is over (or I'm consumed playing Starfield for 6 months)!
Re: EU 'Expected' To Approve Xbox Activision Blizzard Deal Next Week
@EvilSilentFrame Might not have to wait till the 22nd, the full Reuters article claims it's due Monday:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/eu-decision-clearing-69-bln-microsoft-activision-deal-expected-may-15-sources-2023-05-10/
And now Bloomberg is corroborating it - so it's likely even if the result isn't correct, the date of release likely is as they've probably been given a heads up of a media conference time...
Re: Report: Activision Blizzard Hires Royal Family-Level Lawyer To Fight UK CMA
Florian Mueller also picked up this from Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/eu-decision-clearing-69-bln-microsoft-activision-deal-expected-may-15-sources-2023-05-10/
(source: https://twitter.com/FOSSpatents/status/1656297331153846282)
Reuters are a big reputable source for EU news so while I'm not tempting fate (given the CMA's crazy cloud reasoning) it's looking slightly more probable.
Guess that'll then put pressure on the appeal against the CMA (they've got a 66% win rate but that's often against smaller firms) and the court fight with the FTC...
Re: EA CEO: Whatever Happens With ActiBlizz Deal, We'll Still Be #1 Publisher On Microsoft's Platform
@PsBoxSwitchOwner @BrilliantBill Yep good points, I think I still have a picture of old Activision in my head that was a true behemoth and not just because of one game.
EA I more play their own IPs (Mass Effect, Dragon Age) and less of the licenced ones outside Star Wars so forget just how many EA Sports games there are
Re: EA CEO: Whatever Happens With ActiBlizz Deal, We'll Still Be #1 Publisher On Microsoft's Platform
Given I thought CoD a bigger seller than FIFA, I'm surprised that EA are bigger on Xbox than Activision.
It does likely highlight the power of that CoD marketing deal and exclusive content that Sony has, and why they're so desperate to protect it.
Happy for EA though, Play is a nice bonus on Game Pass and they've put a lot more effort into single player experiences recently with the Jedi games - and the Mass Effect Legendary Edition was a good example of how to do a remaster / remake well and at a fair price...
Re: Here's What Might Be Leaving Xbox Game Pass In June 2023
Already own Yakuza LAD so I'm OK there, but do like House Flipper and need to get around to Three Kingdoms on PC...
Re: Microsoft Reckons It 'Lost The Worst Generation To Lose' With Xbox One
He's 100% right, the 360 generation started online gaming properly, but it wasn't as big as the next generation.
The next generation it became mainstream - while my uni friends stayed on Xbox, I had to get a PS4 too if I wanted to play with anyone from home or work as most people swapped to PlayStation due to that disastrous One launch.
By now, those gamers are tied into their friendship groups on PSN, have big digital catalogues from Plus etc and most of all want to see the end of some of the exclusive games they've started the series of - God of War and Horizon for example.
I've never really liked Sony's games outside of Spider Man so wasn't such an issue for me to go XSX only and not get a PS5 too.
Many of them have become quite anti-Xbox but some may get it eventually as a second console - but I haven't met anyone who'd swap their main console.
It really was the worst possible generation to lose
Re: Hogwarts Legacy Looks Surprisingly Good On Xbox One
It's amazing that they've managed to get this going on a base Xbox One - yes the load times are a little longer and the population density is lowered, but it's a staggering achievement
Re: Phil Spencer Says Xbox 'Needs To Improve' Its Development Process
I'm glad he's taken the criticism and accepted changes are made.
I'm still pretty excited for a number of the big games Xbox have coming up, like Starfield, Avowed and Forza Motorsport - and being a fan of Western RPGs I know I'm going to be well catered for.
My main concern was the fact that if they didn't start to hit the big AAA must-have games (which are often not actually my favourites, usually action-adventure instead of RPG) they'd start to lose market share even more and lose more games to PlayStation etc.
But he's addressed it, and I'm happy to wait and see what the June showcase looks like - and how the Activision appeal / EU ruling goes, and if badly what the alternative plan is.
Re: Striking Action RPG 'Ravenlok' Is Available Today With Xbox Game Pass (May 4)
I think I'll be giving a few games that have just come out some time to get patched - so finishing off FH5 Rally and giving this a go I think...
Re: 'Chrono Odyssey' Is A Jaw-Dropping Fantasy RPG Launching On Xbox Series X And S
@grumpypotato Ah balls lol. Guess Avowed and the new Dragon Age will be my best bet for medieval style RPGs for now then
Re: 'Chrono Odyssey' Is A Jaw-Dropping Fantasy RPG Launching On Xbox Series X And S
Really looks good, my heart sank when I read MMORPG though.
Hopefully can be enjoyed solo if it's as good as it looks!
Re: Roundup: Here's What The Critics Think Of Redfall On Xbox Game Pass
Apparently the game doesn't pause even in single player when you go into the menu, one of my biggest annoyances with live service games.
Clearly that's what this was meant to be, to earn cash for independent Bethesda - rather than stripping it out, this should have been iced in favour of a proper single player game, and come back to afterwards to see if it could be salvaged as the next project.
I'll probably give it a try but having just finished Hogwarts I'm fearing this won't compare well...
Re: Roundup: Here's What The Critics Think Of Redfall On Xbox Game Pass
Urgh I know the idea with Game Pass and having big daddy Microsoft picking up the tab is that studios can take risks, but that should probably happen in the second or third Xbox exclusive, or using a smaller team.
The first ones should be more of what they know, most likely Dishonored 3 or Prey 2 - with this put on ice after the takeover till after that game with specialists from other studios coming in to help this one later.
Xbox can't afford too many first party games that aren't polished, fun and something everyone wants to play - HiFi Rush, Forza Horizon 5 and Pentiment are more the quality Xbox should be aiming for consistently.
I know this isn't bad for scores, but Sony first party would consider this set of reviews an absolute disaster and Xbox need to push for similar standards.
Really thinking they need to set up an internal team of Coalition, Playground and ID staff who go studio to studio helping with optimisation and maybe some Obsidian too to help with fun and story.
Starfield for example needs to be practically perfect given the expectations on it, as to be honest should all first party games - the smaller experimental ones can be Game Previews or being smaller should be able to be tested fully like Pentiment and HiFi Rush appeared to be.
How are they not catching these issues sooner?
Re: Microsoft Signs New 10-Year Deal Despite UK ActiBlizz Verdict
@tallythwack Wow you're using physical sales charts?
I don't actually know anyone who buys physical any more - why wait for a delivery or go to a store when you can have it pre-loaded for release day, given most games now need a Day 1 patch anyway or have hardly anything on the disc?
PlayStation generally have about 70% of the market anyway so you'd expect them to have a majority of sales - it's exactly the reason the ABK deal or some version of playing dirty like Sony does is needed this generation.
I imagine you'll disagree with that though as you're clearly not really into Xbox anyway
Re: New Xbox Game Pass Ad Reminds Us Of What's Coming In 2023 And Beyond
Looks good.
Now just got to hope they plaster it over TV and the internet - they do appear to have stepped up the marketing budget again as I'm seeing Redfall on my Samsung TV's menu bar (normally see TV stuff, GTA5 updates or Sony marketing).
Sony have been outspending them 3 to 1 on marketing recently (2020 figures around the release of the PS5 and XSX|S) and so their mindshare in the UK at least seems enormous - PlayStation is practically used for games console in the same way Hoover is used for vacuums.
Fingers crossed between this, the games coming this year and next, and the ABK deal outcome (whether it gets across the line or it doesn't and they go nuclear on Sony) that Xbox is finally back on track...
Re: Microsoft Signs New 10-Year Deal Despite UK ActiBlizz Verdict
@tallythwack I do buy games, even Hogwarts Legacy although the PlayStation exclusive rubbish really made me not want to.
I also buy games that I love from Game Pass - clearly though you're not really interested in the merits of a service that allows you to try new genres or games you might otherwise not risk, given you clearly don't like indies and I'd suggest are probably not a Game Pass / Xbox gamer
Re: Microsoft Signs New 10-Year Deal Despite UK ActiBlizz Verdict
@Skedaddle Yes because I didn't specify first or second party.
I mean PlayStation has many more games released for it each year - like 5000 compared to about 3000 for Xbox, according to people like Jez Corden and Jason Schrier.
Many of those are Japanese or indies that Sony locked down first, but there are too many games where if Xbox gets it first, PlayStation is practically guaranteed a version later (Call of the Sea, The Medium etc) while the reverse often isn't true - there's too many games where there's a PlayStation version and even a Switch version but no Xbox.
If Microsoft lose this deal, we need 360-era, no more being "nice" Xbox - they must be ruthless as they're way behind on console numbers and if this generation ends the same as last more publishers won't make the effort to release on Xbox unless MS pay them significantly extra.
Then less games = less reasons to buy Xbox, so less reason for publishers to release on it, so it becomes a death spiral.
I really hope that doesn't happen, and via either this deal or "mean and green" Xbox can get back to closer to 50/50 split in high end consoles, but the sales figures and wall-to-wall marketing of PlayStation is a worry - Sony often outspend Xbox 3 to 1 on marketing this generation which very much affects the mindshare.
As if Xbox lose this deal but play nice, they'll lose and we'll all have to upgrade our PCs as Sony will become even more anti-competitive and the PS5 games / consoles become extortionately expensive
Re: These 10+ Games Are Coming To Xbox Next Week (May 1-5)
Got to say, I'll be staggered if they get Hogwarts Legacy running well on Xbox One - it'll be a feat of technical magic as it feels like a game that pushes even the XSX...
Re: Video: Star Wars Jedi: Survivor Xbox Series X Vs. Xbox Series S Comparison
Yep these are very good - like the inclusion of the Quality mode on the XSX as with me having the reactions / eyes of a sloth I prefer getting a pretty picture over 60hz.
So shows me the shadow, lighting and background differences that I'll get to enjoy so thanks very much!
Now just need to hurry up and finish the first game...
Re: Layers Of Fear Remake Looks Unreal In New UE5 Showcase
Imagine I'll wait for the full previews - The Medium looked good in videos like this, but when playing it the fixed-camera position was a bit awkward and made it much easier to be "pretty" (it's how Detroit: Become Human looked so amazing on a PS4).
Bloober do good work, but usually a little janky or not-quite-polished-enough - it's why I was surprised they were given the Silent Hill remake