Rumour: Xbox Exclusive Hi-Fi RUSH 'Didn't Make The Money It Needed To Make'

If Xbox wanted to make money like the old days of how many games it sold then they shouldn't have made Game Pass in the first place. That's a weird assumption from Jeff.

If they wanted to make money via sales then it wasn't a great idea releasing day 1 on Game Pass.

Yeah I think the statements are so contradictory that it doesn't make sense. They shadow dropped the title about a month ago and it straight went into game pass. How and why would people then splash money on it to purchase it? Even if they did, they would not do it so soon after release.

I really dislike like these so called "insiders" trying to make news with absolutely zero facts or figures to back up their assumptions. Their source is always "trust me bro" . Same with the recent PSVR2 articles saying it flopped, without any evidence to prove that. Its just white noise designed for clicks. Anything you can find to shoehorn into a predetermined narrative, even if it doesn't really fit, like this.

For the record I am one of the few people who didn't like HiFi Rush as much as I thought I would. I respect it, technically it was great, but I didn't find it all that amazing on a personal level.

It seems people still want to judge Microsoft via game sales, despite targeting completely different metrics of success for several years.
They didn't even release a physical copy of the game, and shadow dropped it, doesn't scream that they were expecting huge sales to begin with.
Isn't their whole ethos now about increasing gamepass subscribers. Its all getting a bit weird recently and this article is really scraping the bottom of the barrel

It sounds like they almost want people to treat game pass like a trial service if they are launching games into a subscription service but also expecting games to pull in reasonable sales figures.

Really? So launching a game on a subscription service and not bothering to make physical copies for their console affected sales? I am surprised

Its on gamepass. It be lucky to sell 50 copies

I get that it’s on game pass. So obv those won’t buy it (yet people do claim they do) but there is a huge amount who don’t sub to game pass. I’d imagine Microsoft was hoping these type of gamers would buy it. It appears they haven’t. - they would still expect it to sell and make extra revenue.

It's probably due to the shadow drop, as I'm sure others have noted. It kind of seemed destined to be niche when I saw it. Reminds me a bit of a Goichi Suda game. Great game, either way.

Well it was a shadow drop on gamepass ..what did they expect

There really is a sense this last month that the house of cards Phil has built is about to come crashing down over at Xbox. And the worse thing is…none of this is surprising. I don’t think there’s a single person at this point who hasn’t pointed out xbox has management issues. Issues with releasing games on time. And certainly issues with marketing. There’s interviews with Phil Spencer dating back years where even he acknowledges these issues…in fact pretty much every year at some point he’s said they can do better…yet never do.
A whole June event last year was designed to demonstrate they recognise at least some of these issues…recognising them and solving them are two different things. The June event has not aged well.

Hopefully this results in new leadership. Phil is a gamer. He needs to be back in a role that benefits from being a gamer. This is not a management role. Xbox needs somebody who gets things done by having some bite. And who spits their dummy out when things aren’t done - Xbox honestly needs a Jim Ryan in Phil’s position.

Hopefully this results in a new marketing team. One capable of marketing beyond twitter. One that’s told to at least MENTION the console. They need to get back to selling the console if they want to see growth in the sub. Until gamepass is FULL of Xbox content and they can get it on other platforms, the console needs to be sold.

We just now need to have our fingers crossed that this news results in those changes and not a change to day1 releases on gamepass subs they’ve sold the promise of for years. And not a new more expensive tier for gamepass day 1 releases. 🤞

It's a constant stream of high quality games that get people to purchase gamepass but it's difficult to establish exactly what games are getting people to subscribe.

Just like with tv online services, game subscriptions are probably the future but equally so, actual purchases will suffer.

I think it's probably a case of Microsoft having to lower their expectations.

Well, we can't say for sure, but one rumour has cropped up suggesting Hi-Fi RUSH's out and out sales weren't where Xbox wanted them to be

🤦‍♂️ Seriously guys, you need rumours to ascertain if a day one Gamepass release (and shadow-dropped at that) does not make sale expectations, really?? Let's go one better and ask ourselves , if Microsoft are really interested in game sales similarly to Sony and Nintendo why would they have Gamepass day one releases on all their first-party games.... I know/understand you have to keep the site traffic going but this is on the ridiculous side of things.

It's a bloody rhythm game. Of course it didn't.

So no physical copy and day 1 gamepass affected its sales. That's shocking! These old folks need to realize it's all about engagement now for MS with gamepass. Different business model.

Maybe I'm being a little cynical with this question, but what exactly does Jeff Grubb bring to the gaming space?

All he does is leak things and thus spoil the surprise of going into any event blindly, or talks about projects which have been cancelled internally before reveal or delayed internally. I just don't get what that contributes other than feeding into the negative drama (such as with Xbox with internal delays for games such as Everwild or Avowed, or with Nintendo and his claiming Metroid Prime Remastered claim would show up years before its eventual reveal or the claims of Zelda HD Ports from Wii U, which only sets incorrect expectations leading to people being disappointed by Nintendo Directs).

Am I being too harsh? I'm just struggling to think of any positive contribution Jeff's so-called "reporting" brings to the gaming industry.

@Bleachedsmiles Considering how non-existent Xbox's marketing is, you really have to wonder how Greenie has been there so long. Xbox has a bad habit of keeping people around that they maybe don't need to.

Well I played it on GP and would gladly pay for a physical copy.

Guys, always take Jeff's information with a grain of salt. He's been wrong on more than one occasion. As for the game, I thought it was pretty enjoyable for a AA release. I never expected big sales numbers and if Phil is "disappointed", then he is delusional beyond measure. A GamePass shadow drop will never sell millions, point blank period.

Surely game pass subscriptions should be brought into play here.
If they say they have not made as much money in sales then that is obvious why game pass.

If game pass subscriptions have been included in compensation along with sales and they still made less money than they should have done.
Then the system as a whole maybe not working for Microsoft.
It depends how they calculate game pass subscriptions costs into what may have been games sold.

Personally I think the whole costs things is bank rolled by rich Microsoft for now and they need more full paying subscribers until they break even or make a profit on overall costs.
If it doesn’t all work out going forward there may come a point when Microsoft have enough of back rolling the whole thing and stop doing it.

@SplooshDmg old lads club mentality really..bunch of mates looking out for one another. It honestly wouldn’t be so bad if this was say a year old problem. But their marketing has been poor since they gave up the rights to COD early last gen.

It’s so weird that since then MS decided on being ‘all in’ in gaming yet still haven’t invested in a good marketing team. Though they also haven’t had the games ready either to market. You do feel though there’s a real reluctance to sell the console… maybe because they make a loss on each one and figure pushing gp on PC is more beneficial than selling consoles and getting GP to them…which is why, by Phils own admission, sales on GP have stagnated. What was telling was he said ‘it’s to be expected as most already have it that want it on console’…rather than consider a bigger push to sell the consoles

@Bleachedsmiles

There really is a sense this last month that the house of cards Phil has built is about to come crashing down over at Xbox

I don't know mate perhaps you can be right and the whole thing is crashing down at Xbox HQ, but do you honestly believe that Microsoft are incompetent to the point of not being capable to discern that Gamepass can and actually affect games sales?. This is a genuine question to all of us who still think that Microsoft are following in the traditional games sales. I personally just don't see it...

@UndyingInsurgent95 It’s not just this game though is it that MS are prob not happy about.
GP numbers aren’t where they expected - we know this to be true.
The console is selling poorly - we know this to be true
Games are skipping Xbox altogether - we know this to be true.
Games keep getting delayed…thus costing more money - we know this to be true
Games are still releasing incomplete and getting negative press - we know this to be true

It all adds up. And it’s about time MS actually addressed the problems at Xbox rather than throw money at more studios to cover up those cracks

It's what I like to call the Game Pass affect. Game Pass conditions people to not want to buy games.

I have a hard time believing that such a small title that was shadow dropped would have a specific sales goal in mind. This seems like a reach.

The game was a passion project, essentially a side project. How much would they expect that to sell? I imagine they were genuinely surprised it reviewed well.

@Sol4ris No, they knew full well gamepass will affect sales… particularly 3rd party. Which is why they pay so much for 3rd party content (Guardians of the galaxy got a reported 100mill for not even releasing day 1). They also know a subscription service survives month to month - which is why they’re not willing to delay Redfall again. Why they’re buying so many studios/publishers.

MS are in too deep with GP. They’re rushing things because the plan is to go 3rd party with gp…always has been, they’ve basically told us as much years ago. They want GP on PlayStation…they only can’t do that yet because GP still needs 3rd party content to fill it out. One day it won’t. And they’ll push to get the app everywhere.
So no, I don’t see MS going back to just traditionally selling games again if that’s what you’re asking?
They do need to sell the console though in order to grow gp. In the next couple of years we are going to see MS still focus on selling GP PC and also GP mobile. Trouble is with these platforms they don’t hold the same potential as locking you into an ecosystem that a console does. If they want sustained GP growth they really need to get the console back in the mindshare of casuals - the only way you do that is by telling them about it.

This kind of unsubstantiated comment/rumour is designed to bring in the clicks, and give ammunition to those that want to bash the Xbox Game Pass. Just wait, you will see many comments on Push in the very near future citing this comment as if it is gospel, captured on film, and included a signed affidavit witnessed by a High Court Judge...

This is the oddest thing I've heard in a while. I almost feel like not subbing to GP to support the games I actually do like by buying them. I intend to buy HiFi rush at some point when it's on sale since I fully played through it on GP already.

@Bleachedsmiles I think this news following the exit of Mikami seems kinda sus. Sure, I'm grasping at straws, but perhaps MS was critical of the Hi-Fi Rush's engagement and revenue and Mikami just facepalmed. I mean, I fired Hi-Fi Rush up for about thirty minutes, admired it's quality, then decided it wasn't for me and never looked back. I'm one of those 2 million. I'm a statistic!

How is this a surprise to anyone?

@Bleachedsmiles
So no, I don’t see MS going back to just traditionally selling games again if that’s what you’re asking

And that is precisely why this rumour is ridiculous and makes no sense.

If they want sustained GP growth they really need to get the console back in the mindshare of casuals - the only way you do that is by telling them about it

That will come in due course, once the casuals realise that COD et all can be played without the need to pay £70(a pop) things should look different from what are at present. I guess I just don't see this the doom and gloom that other people do.

Oh look Gamepass killing sales of another game.

I don't understand Jeff's argument here.. the game was shadow-dropped to GP, and no sane company would expect it to make a high number of traditional sales.
Now, if it wasn't downloaded as many times as expected, or it didn't move the GP subscription needle as much.. I can see that perspective. But I highly doubt that (hands down best Xbox thing in 2023.).

@Sol4ris And how are the casuals going to realise that if MS is still inept at telling them?

The ps5 console is now 10s of millions ahead of Xbox in sales. Casual gamers buy 1 or 2 games per year and go where their friends are. Cod is still going to be on PS5 throughout this gen. I don’t think 10s of millions of them are leaving PS5 to balance out the numbers on Xbox. Xbox need more than cod at this point. They need consistent quality releases - that is a big ask from mismanaged studios. They need top tier marketing campaign - that’s a big ask from an inept marketing team. Something needs to change.

The rumour, if true, won’t halt the gp plans…but could see changes to it that don’t benefit the gamer - price raise. Added gamepass tiers. Games not coming day 1. Hell, more games multiplatform - meaning less focus on optimisation
They need to see how well other games like starfield, redfall etc do that haven’t been shadow dropped. But they really do need to address clear problems - we all benefit from that.

It’s almost like they did t marketing it, didn’t release it in stores, and put it into a subscription service wait

The game didn’t have a physical. There are no download cards for it. It was shadow dropped. And then they didn’t do marketing after. Like it’s not the games fault and this should be perfectly clear with all the good buzz etc

You have to do these things the community can’t do them for you.

@SplooshDmg a lot of these studios have multiple teams working on multiple games. Mikami had no part to play in making Hi Fi Rush. If anything he probably got out the door before the backlash of Ghostwire. I kid.

It is odd though that so many seem not to stay long at Xbox

@Clankylad might the new metric be "how many additional gamepass subscriptions did we see in the following two months"? I thought this game ruled and was priced reasonably outside of gamepass. Would love to see more like it.

A weird rhythm platformer/Dreamcast throwback that dropped day one on a popular subscription service didn't sell well? Color me shocked.

@Snake_V5 I won't even buy Game Pass titles on other platforms. There have been at least a few indies that I didn't buy simply because they went to Game Pass at launch.

I'm a person who follows incentives. Same reason I don't buy Playstation games at launch anymore: I know they'll go down to $10 in a sale before too long.

I’m sure there is a bit of info missing from this story. It’s very possible “didn’t make the money” is not talking about sales (exclusively) but about the game also not securing the GamePass engagement they were expecting.

My armchair analyst opinion: shadow dropping an entirely unknown triple a game is a bad idea. You need a marketing cycle and to hype up players, create much more mental awareness than you get out of a simple launch window.

It also would help if people could walk into a store in the US and buy a darned Series X… come on Microsoft, fix your stock issues!!!

@MattT3142 Man I've been wondering for years as to what he truly contributes. I normally just keep quiet about him because he seems to be liked for the most part. Glad I'm not the only one who felt the same about him.

Yeah, you can’t release a game on GamePass and then wonder why more copies didn’t sell. Why buy what you can already play?

@Bleachedsmiles I know that, Hi-Fi Rush is the product of John Johanas, however Mikami was more than just a key member of Tango. If the studio you founded has its most successful release in a good long while, and then the suits sitting on the top floor tell you it wasn't good enough, I think any employee at that point is going to be frustrated. Was he going to hammer away in another game and then just get told the same thing? I'd like to take a glimpse at the alternate universe where Hi-Fi Rush was marketed normally and multiplatform and see what that looks like.

After a couple of months when the game is pretty much 'free to play' on a Subscription, not what I'd call a Console, let alone a Subscription seller, its not surprising if it doesn't pull people into Game Pass or 'sell' well.

I would say it's also a game that most will try only if they have Game Pass or wait for a sale if not. Its not a 'long' game either and already seems 'old' news now. By that, I mean that its a game that's not really discussed or talked about as a reason to buy Xbox/Game Pass sub - not like FH5, Redfall, Starfield etc. It 'seems' to be another 'Pentiment' - a game that got great reviews, but almost 'forgotten' as a First Party Exclusive to play.

I don't know what they were 'expecting' - to me, it never 'looked' like it would pull 15m+ gamers to try it. It seemed a bit like 'Returnal' a new IP that seemed 'niche', reviewed very well, but didn't exactly 'sell' millions in its first few months (Sold just over half a million after several months on the market). I would have been surprised if 1m bought Hi-Fi Rush if Game Pass hadn't enabled gamers to play it.

I don't play games that don't really 'appeal' to me - regardless of how well made they are, how well polished they are etc. It doesn't matter to me that I can 'try' it free via Game Pass either, it first has to appeal 'more' than any other game I could play. I am not wasting game time by 'trying' something that doesn't really appeal to me when I could be playing something I really want to.

Game Pass should still allow games like Hi-Fi Rush or Pentiment, games that maybe aren't as 'commercial' as a Live Service AAA action game in an established IP that will 'sell' to fans of that IP - regardless of how 'good/bad' the game is. I bet Gotham Knights sold because of the DC branding...

@Bleachedsmiles I wouldn't say it's selling "poorly". So far, they've sold more Series S consoles than a lifetime of XONE, and that's a fact. They're behind PlayStation unfortunately, but still, they're overtaking Nintendo in some markets so I think that's a good sign.
As for GamePass, I don't think it's affecting sales THAT much. Personally, I buy a lot of games I try on GamePass and I'm definitely not the only one.

@Moonglow yeah, hifi rush 30$ outsold forspoken 70$. Kinda odd at grubb as to where did he heard such rumours ...or he has buddy there that he told him about it.

@UndyingInsurgent95 see something cant be labelled ‘the best value in gaming’ …if the majority of gamepass subs are still buying the games. This tells me they’re not.

@Moonglow A service that MS avoid giving numbers out. When a company avoids giving out sales numbers to something they sell it means only one thing it ain't doing well, where's Sony and Nintendo love shouting about milestones in sales MS remain quiet and that's most likely because they have nothing to shout about.

My opinion? I think the Gamepass high is over and now the low is kicking in for MS and the Devs that take the GP offer.

@Belkan Just because one did better then the other doesn't mean both were a success.

@SplooshDmg thing is the week of hifi rush being out they were saying it was a success. The success obviously didn’t have legs. But I don’t think criticism would have got him out the door. MS should be expecting more. We’ve all complained how they’re too hands off…even their own studios have.
I don’t think this is about attacking the team at tango though, or the quality of the game. It’s the bigger issues around it.

A lot of anti-xbox "rumors" these past weeks, I wonder if it has something to do with Activision (:

@Belkan Where you getting Hi-Fi Rush outsold Forspoken?

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/10uy78y/forspoken_actually_outsold_and_outperformed_hifi/

Forspoken outsold Hi-Fi rush and bought in more revenue, but I admit that that's to be expected as it wasn't included in a subscription service. It may of failed to achieve sales expectations but I bet it still broke even on its development costs.

Now this might be a stretch here but give it some thought....what if....if...they are trying to mend relations with Square and are being disappointed it didn't achieve some unreachable goal? It definitely sounds like square.

Now this is all roumor but it doesn't make sense. You have a new IP in a niche genre that's way out of what you expect from the studio being shadow dropped and excluding switch and PlayStation....and in your service. It generated so much hype and positive vibes I can't imagine what expectations they had to be disappointed. It was high in the Steam charts and i believe tango officially said it exceed their expectations no?

@Bleachedsmiles Eh, I'm not entirely sure. This is Mikami, he's highly employable. Guy could go anywhere he wanted to. Considering how many people have come and gone now, it's kinda hard to say something isn't going on. 343i is a mess, but that seems in part because no one at the top knew what the heck they wanted and have just frustrated that entire studio to no end.

There's just a mixed message here. One day Xbox is talking about letting creators make these passion projects, but behind the scenes they are maybe complaining they aren't making enough money. This has been the key issue with Xbox for ten years now. Nobody at Microsoft has any idea what Xbox is or needs to be. We really have no idea how MS is trying to quantify success with games on Game Pass. Hours played? Times downloaded? How are they measuring the value to the service? And did it do enough?

@Tharsman well my problem with the sales goal conversation is that Xbox uses player count for their KPI. That’s the parts that’s weird. Unless they are talking solely about Steam sales, because then it all makes sense. I agree with you there is a portion of the statement that’s missing.

I still don't get how developers especially Microsofts 1st party ones work out how much they are bringing in off gamepass. Take Bethesda for example who are owned by Microsoft, how much do they get for putting their games on gamepass, do Microsoft class Bethesda as seperate company and pay them separately? As Hi fi Rush is listed as a Bethesda title on metacritic and are a seperate publisher to Microsoft on there still. If so then maybe Microsoft have to pay Bethesda a certain amount due to how many players have played the game on gamepass, and it didn't meet expectations and didn't get the money back they were hoping for. It's all very confusing.

This is a bizzarre rumor. I'm getting very very tired of these self-important "insiders" that somehow gained legitimacy among news outlets despite being nothing but twitter rumor mongers. For 6 years "Switch Pro" was coming "this year", now "HFR didn't meet sales expectations", then PSVR2 production numbers were cut (Sony says no) then PSVR2 sales bombed (Sony says no), before that it was PS5 production numbers were cut (Sony said no.) It's not really anti-any platform or pro any platform, these guys literally just make stuff up with less reliability than a tabloid and gamers click on it like crazy. Why is any real news site even referencing any of this garbage anymore? Freaking Patcher is more reliable with more real information and we now know to ignore him...why are we paying attention to an even worse Patcher-lite?

I don't doubt HFR didn't sell well, or even perform well on GP. It's a rhythm action game with a cartoon style. While that sounds like just about the only thing from modern gaming I'd touch, somehow todays emo kids will consume only blackness and war. The game dropped in a "Direct" presentation targeting only the faithful, was treated as a smaller side project, and really IS a smaller side project. It was clearly meant to boost GP content. Why would they expect high sales? Can't imagine they did.

Maybe this means it was lower engagement than they thought. If so that's an actually disappointing metric, because it just means it wasn't desirable content to the market, but then I can't figure out what desirable content really is. But, of course this all comes from a rumor monger that stirs controversey for income. It could all be made up. Jeff gets money from this. Nobody else gets information. Does Xbox have unrealistic sales goals on games launching to GP? Does ALL of Xbox have that goal or is it an internal war like raising the Gold price a few years ago? Is it about low player numbers on GP in which case it means the game didn't appeal to the market which is sad. Is it fiction?

On the OUTSIDE we can say HFR doesn't exist to sell copies, HFR exists to bolster GP satisfaction. Otherwise it wouldn't shadow drop highlighting how it's part of the sub. But if nobody's playing it on the sub, then that would imply the game really fizzled. Or are the numbers not based on the console faithful and are based on mobile players not playing it on the sub? And does anyone have a distinction as to what the numbers are expected to look like?

Or is Microsoft happy and Bethesda isn't because they still have dinosaurs running operations that haven't really adapted to their model yet and are using old benchmarks not aligned with MS's intentions? So many unknowns in these slimy shadow rumor statement.s

This is a rumour from the biggest blabbermouth in the video games industry, Jeff Grubb. In any case, like others have said above, the success of a Game Pass game should include Game Pass players.

@NEStalgia Something else Grubb pointed out is that he suspects the failure of Halo is having a bit of a ripple effect. I mean, this is the company that had Halo currency credits printed and hanging on the shelves at Wal-Mart and now they're nowhere to be seen. Consider Jim saying that CoD money fuels Sony's 1st party development. I think MS was really counting on some big MTX money from Halo, and now it's just floundering and burning money. I think this is why ABK is so important, I think Game Pass is sustainable, but I also think MS is desperate for enormous MTX revenues coming in from somewhere to fuel the bottom line, which is now putting more pressure on other places because they haven't secured that yet.

@UltimateOtaku91 so even though low ratings players still bought forspoken.... Well I guess they were die hard fans of square.

@NEStalgia oh a part of me does think it’s click at. A larger part of me suspects that he only has a fraction of the story. It did get 2 million players, so I assume that for a game of that size, it decent engagement. I think it’s a half picture and Jeff is running with it. I mean any idiot can see if don’t market or technically sell something, it won’t sell. I can’t see how that wouldn’t be obvious. How can you have a sales goal then?

@Belkan Not necessarily, not everyone who bought forspoken read reviews, and not everyone played the demo. Square Enix shot themselves in the foot by releasing a demo, would of got a lot more day one sales without it.

@Sebatrox Game wasn't broken so would of been hard to get refunds

Another thing that just crossed my mind:

Bethesda still operates somewhat independently. Microsoft/Xbox/Phil might be perfectly happy with the performance of Hi-Fi Rush, but it’s still possible that within Bethesda (that still acts as a publisher) they are still focused on the unit sales.

@UltimateOtaku91 then Xbox should release hifi rush on xbox 1 to boost more sales

@UltimateOtaku91 neither Xbox nor Steam care if a game is broken. If you want a refund, you get it so long you didn’t play the game longer than 2 hours and bought it within 2 weeks.

@Belkan Yes I agree that would help, also bring out a limited run physical edition like they did with psychonauts 2.

@Tharsman I didn't know that, I know with playstation they give a refund only if you have downloaded the game but haven't started it yet or its reported a broken mess.

@Tharsman I suppose people can relax more on steam and xbox, and can take more risks with purchases that way as they know if the game is bad they can guarantee their money back.

@UltimateOtaku91 yes PlayStation refund policy sucks. Mind you I still doubt HFR had that many refunds. Comparing its sales to Forspoken is not a highlight, since Forspoken was a huge dud.

@UltimateOtaku91 MS should reconsider putting physical copies like special edition.

What a stupid statement from Jeff Grubbs, Microsoft can't assume to make money from a game that shadow drop on gamepass day one, good Games on gamepass day one is what will convince people to subscribe to the service. Not convince gamer to buy the game.

@Tharsman I doubt HFR had any refunds at all, there was nothing wrong with the game. I only mentioned forspoken as someone said HFR had more actual sales (not players). Forspoken did fail but not down to it being a playable mess but because of its poor story and annoying characters.

@Belkan I believe all first party games should have a standard physical edition.

As much as I like physical games, I doubt that had any weight here.

Xbox indeed has a huge disproportionate digital focused consumer base, Steam is purely digital, and due to Xbox not being able to figure out their darned Series X supply issues in the west, most Xboxes sold now are basically Series S all digital boxes.

Honestly, physical copies help more at selling the consoles themselves, since consumers get to see the lineup of exclusive games on the shelves when they walk into a store.

@Sebatrox And the Trojan Horse. Don't open your door! 😁

A lot of people here are forgetting the word RUMOUR in the title.

For some reason whenever Xbox has negative news whether true or false, people are acting like this is the end of Xbox and humanity is doomed forever. You lot need to chill the f*ck out and stop jumping to conclusions without researching first or more importantly letting the emotions get the better of you.

@NEStalgia honestly, Grubb has a very accurate track record and is more often right than not.

The Switch Pro was, from enough accounts, very real and even available to multiple devs (the way info leaked) but ultimately it was canned. I can see plenty of reasons for its cancelation too, it would had been targeting precisely a time window where securing chips to meet demand was near impossible, and the demand for classic switch hardware never went down despite the low specs.

As for Sony, I’ll never believe them when they Denny negative news. Jim’s a liar, and PS5 vr really has barely made a whimper in the market. I don’t doubt it is indeed underperforming, and will see a Vita-style life-cycle. By this I mean Sony will likely abandon it on first party outside occasional modes, and the platform will fully rely on indie and small buster third parties.

Tango is expanding found here

https://twitter.com/idlesloth84_/status/1649404653619015680?s=46&t=WCDs1NVYEstoCbR4sxq_Kg

If MS wasn’t happy with HiFi they wouldn’t be expanding when the rest of the company is laying off.

Shadow drop + day 1 GamePass = unsurspring it didn't make enough money, if the rumour is true. 🤷‍♂️

@Solidchief A rumour coming from the biggest blabbermouth in the video games industry, indeed. He's the most ambiguous thing ever. He's only specific about obvious things that everybody knows like Nintendo developing new hardware.

@mousieone Hopefully this means we will get The Evil Within 3

@mousieone even if Hi Fi rush numbers disappointed Phil, they would not throw the studio under the bus. They are cooking many other things, and it’s their only Japanese studio.

That said: they need to get them to fix Ghostwire on Xbox…

@UltimateOtaku91 I would think so. Tango stepped up to me to be MS premier studio.

@Banjo- Unfortunately he isn't the only one doing this nonsense

@Solidchief Totally right. It seems that Sony zealots are hyperactive lately.

@Tharsman yes please they do. But I honestly think like you we missing a part of Jeff’s statement.

And here’s where he backtracks a bit https://twitter.com/jeffgrubb/status/1649420498411847680?s=46&t=WCDs1NVYEstoCbR4sxq_Kg

When he sais "it did not make the money Microsoft was expecting" everyone is just saying that obviously it sold less than a full release without Gamepass but I feel that it also that it did not generate new subscription either

@mousieone would not call it backtracking, it’s actually close to my assumption: Bethesda expected more sales, but Phil is likely perfectly happy with its performance.

@Balta666 his statement (based on the article quote) didn’t say the monetary expectation was Microsoft’s. I’m guessing here, but as I said a few times, I think this is Bethesda’s expectations.

"I was just trying to say that I heard Hi-Fi Rush didn't make the money it was expected to make. But to be clear, I don't really know how Microsoft measures success. This was just a small, passing statement in a larger conversation. It wasn't meant to make people worry about HFR"

Already walking back his statement because its so easy to poke holes in it. This is why "insiders" are not even worth the time to report what they say, im not sure why you do it.

He has absolutely no idea if MS regard it as a success or not. He has absolutely no idea how much money it was supposed to make, or how much it did make. He knows absolutely nothing about it. Zero. He just wanted the clicks and attention, and you gave him it. Insiders just throw as much stuff at the wall and see what sticks, same with the psvr2 "reports"

This should never have been a story to begin with

I hope Hi-Fi Rush didn't fail. I did end up buying the full deluxe edition of the game shortly after release and beating it on gamepass, and the cosmetic DLC for the boss themed costumes about a week or two ago, and would still double dip for a nice physical CE. This game was the injection shot that modern game development DESPERATELY needs in the sea of mediocre AAA games that get put on a pedestal because 'muh story and graphics'. Only Silksong stands a chance of topping it as my GOTY.

@NEStalgia summoning you because you thought the same thing.

@Tharsman well it was easier to say that but I agree with you 100% on this. It was half conversation with half the statement. But yeah LS is Probabaly happy with the GP numbers.

@UltimateOtaku91 I did request a refund for HiFi Rush on Steam, but only because I noticed afterwards the DRM that was slapped on it.
But I did go and buy it on the Xbox store...

I know clicks pay the bills, but this really shouldn't have been a story.

@UltimateOtaku91 i am prerty sure Forspoken sold more than Hi Fi Rush (I would be seriously concerned if a heavily marketed ps exclusive could not beat a shadow dropped gamepass release) but i must say that reddit thread is awful, full of assumptions and guesswork based on loose steam data and is torn to shreds by every commenter. Not really proof of anything lol

@Tharsman Are there really stock issues where you are? For months now my local Walmart and GameStop have had consoles available in store at all times.

@Sakai It was the only thing I could find that would indicate how forspoken sold against HFR lol quite hard since Square never really publish actual figures, I know they admitted it performed poorly but atleast show us the figures.

@FatalBubbles there is where I am as well. A Twitter user named Welfare watches it and there is barely stock. The current thought is that what they do make is going to cloud servers. But unlike Sony they haven’t fixed the stock issues.

@Sakai

He has absolutely no idea if MS regard it as a success or not. He has absolutely no idea how much money it was supposed to make, or how much it did make. He knows absolutely nothing about it. Zero

Pretty much in a nutshell 😅. But how else would the doomsday Xbox naysayers be able to act like one of the Apocalypse horsemen descended on Microsoft and Xbox? Spare a thought 😉

@Tharsman well the only one that should care about how much money did is Microsoft because it is the one paying the bills .

@FatalBubbles nope, not available at any local Bestbuy, Target, GameStop or Walmart.

They show up once in a while but they vanish fast. I got mine, my concern is not getting one for myself, but right now I can walk anywhere and buy a PS5, but not a Series X, and in the long run that hurts the platform.

The more I read the more I worry that all isn't right at team green and sometimes I wonder if I should've gone PS5. Truth is though Xbox's exclusives appeal to me much more- Halo, Starfield. They're just so damn few and far between and the problem is this has been hammered home time and time again since they literally revealed the xone.

@Balta666 not really, Bethesda still operates quite independently and they still make decisions on what to budget based on their own ways. Hopefully Microsoft is handing them GamePass engagement data, but who knows how Bethesda interprets it.

@Reptilio although there is some impact to the long term health of a platform install base, it’s mostly reflected on what third party titles show up or skip and the platform.

If it’s Xbox first party games you want, then you should not regret getting on team Xbox, although the smartest play is always to get all the platforms, provided it’s reasonable within your budget.

@FraserG Thank you! Interesting to read a response to the rumour.

@Tharsman they can work semi-independently on a daily basis in terms of managing resources and projecta but they should have close to no say regarding on where and how things are to be published and the expectations in engagement/profit

@UltimateOtaku91 on a brighter note, Tango has apparently been greenlit for a couple of games 1 could be an RPG. They seem to be MS/Xbox up and coming studio. I hope you get your Evil Within 3

@mousieone I hope so as I do like their games, I would love an horror rpg from them.

@Sol4ris the FUD around xbox has been pretty extreme recently. It can't be a coincidence that the ABK deal is weeks away from being approved or denied in the UK and EU

@UltimateOtaku91 Evil Within 3 would be nice, that's a good shout. I enjoyed number 2

@Sakai Yeah number 2 was a massive improvement over the first game, the inclusion of a semi open map to explore with side quests was quite unique.

@mousieone On a side note I've noticed you've been playing Mato Anomalies, is that game any good as I may get it soon but it's reviews are a mixed bag.

@ShadowofTwilight30 @UltimateOtaku91 Look at the new accounts reinforcements.

And look at Microsoft spoiling your fun:

Hi-Fi RUSH was a break out hit for us and our players in all key measurements and expectations. We couldn’t be happier with what the team at Tango Gameworks delivered with this surprise release.

@Banjo- oh wow are you serious? You think I create second profiles now? I'm pretty sure the admins behind this site can clear that up for you by looking at IP/location data etc.

@Banjo- Are you an hypocrite now as well?

Literally you called me the ultimate xbox hater before I wrote that?

Does that mean you are angry and bitter also?

@Banjo- I've not downplayed Microsoft on this article......

@Banjo- What hypocrisy is there? That I said forspoken had more sales than hi fi rush? Where's the hypocrisy in that, makes no sense.

One of two things WILL HAPPEN to game pass. Either the price will at minimum double (basically to play 99% of content being on quality level of game boy titles) or will fail into obscurity due to developers realize they are leaving sales on the table.

@Banjo- Again I wasnt downplaying xbox on this article, I admit I have my moments where i stick up for Sony on here and call out Microsoft for things but only because sony get called out for the same things on here. Also I comment on a lot of articles on here that don't include talking about Sony/Microsofts, I like debates and seeing other people's opinions and answers to my own opinions without being attacked. I play xbox games weekly too so I get information on new games from this site and you're welcome to add me just to see im not one of those guys that lies about playing xbox to justify what I'm saying.

The other week I stuck up for redfall on the 30fps article yet you could of replied to that and had a conversation but you only choose my comments that go against your views on sony/microsoft and then we argue about it.

@Tharsman Wild! I never see PS5s here but always can find Xbox. Must be a regional thing.

@UltimateOtaku91 I respect everybody's tastes and opinions. I don't care if you hate Xbox and you love PS but you should be honest and you shouldn't support and feed the trolls that insult me for being an Xbox fan. You did it today and you do it every time it happens.

@SplooshDmg I do think that's a huge part of it absolutely. Idk why they thought Halo would do that but I'm certain they did.

There's something very very very broken in an industry where every product costs more to make than it can reasonably earn and is merely subsidized be one of 5 games that somehow generate unimaginable income by selling literally nothing at all. I mean, broken beyond measure. Hardware never should have driven games development simply because of what it CAN do. I can't tell if it's the industry or the consumer that's broken. The fed keeps trying to slow buying and borrowing with interest hikes and everyone keeps buying like nothing happened. I'm thinking it's consumers that are broken. Games shouldn't cost this much to make. And mtx games shouldn't make nearly the money they do.

@UltimateOtaku91 so far it’s pretty okay. The dungeons are easy, and gameplay loop is a bit slow. However the card Battle and overall combat mechanics are very nice. It’’a a smaller game but I’m starting to enjoy it.

@mousieone "mean any idiot can see if don’t market or technically sell something, it won’t sell."

Does Greensburg know this?? Also can you put that in an email to Jim Ryan re psvr2? Thx.

@FatalBubbles oo the GameStops have PS5s stacked to my head here. ^^ if you ever want a second one I can get one easily.

@Banjo- I'm pretty sure you did that to me first with Sebatrox? And then you we're the first to say I'm bitter and angry, first to call me an hypocrite then went on to say I'm creating multiple accounts, and you do seem to attack me on most articles where I do mention anything to do with sony.

Again I never said I hate xbox, why would I be playing Atomic Heart and Ghostwire Tokyo on gamepass if I hated xbox. My views don't have to be the same as yours and we don't have to see eye to eye but let's not start attacking each other, let's have debates and civil conversations and agree to disagree.

I'm sorry if I've offended you at any point today I am, but I will stick up for myself.

So can we drop this now, or maybe change the subject to something positive? Heck let's even talk about Nintendo, rather that than us continue bickering.

@NEStalgia well Aaron just said the game did great for MS so I think it’s and internal Bethesda conversation that Grubb quoted. Bethesda still might lol at sales indicators. That’s why it was weird for MS to care when their KPI is players.

If this thread gets any more redacted posts it can be officially submitted to the FTC as relevant documents!

@ShadowofTwilight30 I mainly use streaming via backbone one lately and sometimes my tablet. There's plenty to play but I suppose most people are just waiting for the big games like starfield and Hellblade etc The only reason I don't play it more is mainly because Im a JRPG player and I mainly game on playstation/nintendo for those.

@mousieone Cool I may pick it up next week then, the trailer gave me persona vibes mixed with detective aspects.

@mousieone Yeah that's exactly what I pondered earlier. Bethesda has been doing game pass since before the merge so they should be familiar with it but that doesn't mean tango or middle managers not tied to team toddy have caught up to speed. I'm sure they have some walking fossils on there that just look at sales and see failure without a clue they're intended to retain subs not move units.

@mousieone I’ve bought three Series X and two PS5 so far. One of each for myself and the others for friends who couldn’t find them. It seems like I’ve had good luck.

@UltimateOtaku91 What are your thoughts on backbone v tablet. I have a retroid I'm using as 3ds duty for gp, but debating adding either Logitech g cloud or iPad for a go switch (no point in the Sony device I'm sure it won't do xb

I'm going to play something to raise my gamer score... I'm an Xbox fan but I'm not a real Xbox player /sarcasm.

@FatalBubbles well like O said if you need my help let me know. There are a ton of PS5s everywhere here. I’d be happy to assist.

@NEStalgia Beats me. I'm part of the problem and the solution. I bought Fire Emblem and Atelier Ryza 3 this month. Then I funneled some money into the Genshin gacha machine. I checked and I have played Genshin every day for six straight months now. Not sure when or if I'll kick the habit. It's tough gettin off drugs.

@Balta666 Phil might get to do a final approval, but he himself stated that it was Bethesda (precisely Tango) that insisted on a shadow drop to GP and Steam, so we know that Phil at the end trust them to make publishing decisions, with the one exception of “not going to PlayStation”.

@NEStalgia The Backbone is the clear winner for me, the fact you don't need Bluetooth for anything as it connects straight to the usb port and has an aux port for headphones means no lag at all, whilst on tablet (latest ones) you have to atleast connect the controller or headphones via Bluetooth which has always created input lag/audio delay for me.

Also there's portability as you can take it anywhere to play and is simple to set up, but with tablets being bigger and taking an actual controller with you may seem a bit too much.

Although there is one flaw with the backbone depending on the game you're playing and that's the screen size, I tried Battlefield 2042 and I couldn't see players in the distance lol but on a bigger screen I could. I would definitely say its not for multiplayer shooters.

@mousieone Thanks, I think? Seems like a passive aggressive shot at me but whatever. Lol.

@FatalBubbles Don't feel bad. Mousie is mean to me too.

@SplooshDmg Haha. I was just reporting on my local stock situations. A strange topic to trigger someone

@SplooshDmg That's why we all <3 mousie. There needs to be at least one poster even snarkier than me.

I mean I've been playing NMS in VR every day for months. But I'm not paying into the game every day.

@Tharsman Yeah, these guys that are "right" a lot are also "wrong" a lot, and more times than not have no real information and are totally out of context. They sell the idea of having special access and information, they talk a lot because that's where sponsor money comes from and his "show" looks like a cross between Howard Stern and Nascar with all the advertising plastered all over. But the reality is he's not on the inside, he's not a journalist working for a publication with access, and even the journalists working for publications with access (Bloomberg in particular) have been wrong more often than right. Patcher has real access and...when's the last time he was right about anything ever? Grubb's a dude with a mic and a rep. "Switch pro was real" Except that it isn't. "I was right before I was wrong!" is the ultimate Patcher-ism.

PSVR2....IDK, I mean the "underperforming" schtick came from the same place that said PS cut back PS5 production which clearly isn't even close to reality. Actual sales data after the claims showed it was selling ok. Yeah Jim and Sony lie through their teeth to no end (and so does Greenberg) but we don't know what their expectations are on sales, and more importantly, of course sales suck, they haven't even actually started SELLING it yet! It's not even in retailers, not even Gamestop, it's direct to customer only, normal folks don't even know it exists. But is that under-performing or meeting expectations? Hard to say. Sales data shows it's the fastest selling unit in it's wired class which isn't nothing. No it won't sell as fast as a wireless set, but that's a given. I don't doubt sales are anemic, but within expectations or not is another matter. Grubb (and Bloomberg) don't know.

Now, Sony abandoning it or not, that I wouldn't doubt you're right on. Though it's hard to abandon it when they didn't 1st party support it to begin with. It has literally one game known in development that's first party after CotM & GT, an online shooter. But....that's ok, really. Given the expected ROI I don't expect big first party support, I do expect modes and supporting indies. To be fair, they're assembling that new cloud/streaming task group and part of that group's focus is also VR, so whether or not they have big first party IP they seem to be supporting the platform itself. Now...is JIM trying to kill it? I'm almost certain. We're relying on Tokyo undermining him. Which the current management actually seems almost gleeful to be doing from VR to ABK.... I get the sense Tokyo an Jim are pretty close to open warfare against each other.

@NEStalgia Who's snarkier? Mousie or Mythra? Don't even say Eunie, because Eunie kinda sucks. God, I hate XC3.

@UltimateOtaku91 same. Although it’s less like Persona and more like Ai Somnium mixed in with card mechanics.

@NEStalgia No one out snarks you. I’m just louder and less cuddly.

@FatalBubbles passive aggressive? Umm no I’m just aggressive. If I ever act passive run the opposite direction. That said I really don’t mind helping. Seeing PS5 mountain and knowing someone wants one.

@SplooshDmg well here I thought I’d found someone that actually is okay with a good old fashion debate. =/ I guess I’ll have to hide now. Or die. Crumble. Yup I have to crumble sploosh hates me …

@mousieone I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about that time you threatened to put me in a cage.

@SplooshDmg I thought we weren’t going to talk about that ever…

@mousieone So you aggressively want to buy me a PS5, the plot thickens!

@FatalBubbles no I want to “help” you buy a PS5 very “aggressively” =)

@mousieone I don’t need one at the moment but for future reference we talking like 50/50 split or…

@FatalBubbles well I’m not rich so you’ll have to figured out how make worth my time

By the way I’m a mouse so nuts are a good bribe.

But I all serious if someone needs one desperately we can figure it out.

@mousieone You could always recruit a laborer to help you stuff me in that cage. That seems like a reasonable ask if there is to be an exchange of services.

@Rmg0731 also,while it's a fun game it's not the kind of game I would ever buy. Gamepass was the perfect place for it. Dlc is how to make money on GP games.

@mousieone @SplooshDmg I was the one tasked with procuring the cage to begin with so I feel like I should have been part of this discussion.

Are there any requirements of a unibody design, or can sploosh be stacked in modular pieces for later assembly to reduce the cost of the cage?

The savings could factor into @FatalBubbles final invoice on the PS5.

@NEStalgia My mom actually bought me from IKEA, so I am entirely modular and sustainably sourced.

@SplooshDmg Oh, so that's why you have extra arms and your feet face backwards. Always wondered about that. Looked right in the instructions I'm sure.

@NEStalgia It surely explains why I smell like meatballs and lingonberries.

@SplooshDmg Ohh!! I thought that was elderberries!

@NEStalgia Nope. That was my father. Did I mention my mother was a hamster?

@SplooshDmg I’m a mouse hamsters don’t scare me.

@NEStalgia let me get this straight you want me to force @FatalBubbles into manually labor,. I mean I can… seems a bit much to get sploosh into a cage.

@mousieone no no @FatalBubbles doesn't need to do any labor. We can disassemble sploosh and fit him in a smaller, cheaper cage and you can put the savings into Fatal Bubbles PS5. Better value through more efficient use of space. Sploosh loves accounting, he'll understand.

@NEStalgia I like the way you think.

@NEStalgia I think there's some tax credits available for using smaller more environmentally friendly cages. I'll check the tax software and see if maybe we can work FatalBubbles into refund territory, and then he can just buy the PS5 outright. That or I can just make some stuff up. Either one works.

@SplooshDmg If you weren't making stuff up, you wouldn't be much of an accountant. You have a future at square enix. And then you'll thank us for innovating the small cage. It's at least 2x the size of the apartments their other Tokyo employees get.

@NEStalgia We have a thing at the office that we call the SWAG method. Which is a Systematic Wild Ass Guess.

I'll thank you, and then tell you that the smaller cage underperformed.

Have I ever mentioned that Symphony of the Night is REALLY fun?

@SplooshDmg I like that and am going to have to steal it.

If by "underperformed" you mean "sold like water in a desert but we threw all the money into a bottomless hole making a cage we can't even figure out what it should be so we just poached Capcoms guys to make their cage and call it ours" then that's logical.

Wow I've never heard of that game

@NEStalgia It's truly just silly how games that are twenty five plus years old, that I've already beaten ten times over, are still way more fun than the overwhelming majority of games being released today. We really are going backwards in terms of actual gameplay. I will never get over Niel Druckman saying that TLOU2 wasn't meant to be fun. ITS A GAME. IF ITS NOT FUN, THEN WHAT ARE WE DOING? They just don't make em like they used to.

@SplooshDmg Totally agree. I don't know how it why but we're totally going backwards. The most popular game are nothing but a zoom call with guns to hang out with friends. Just the other day someone on a thread here or push said it in so many words that they mostly play mp games because their friends moved away and games the tthe most convenient way to hang out. That literally what the game market is based on, it's not about gameplay it's just AR zoom, Facebook, the mall between orange Julius and 9-7-5 for a new generation and nothing more. This is America, if you want to hang out with friends but with guns we have tax payer funded schools for that. Leave Sly Cooper for the rest of us.

That's a weird theme. We have druckman telling us to pay $70 to NOT HAVE FUN. We have square enix reminding us that "some people even buy games to have fun". Wtf happened??

Edit: and the thread on push about how excited people are for all the animated shows based on games... People clamoring for Bloodborne and got ANIMATED shows. That's...... Just...I don't get it. I really don't. A game designed as a game to be a game and a dreary depressing period war story.... And people are begging for animated tv of it.....

I mean sure, I watched Mario and Sonic tv shows back in the day..... Who wouldn't watch Steve Urkel as a rodent? But I wouldn't beg for a Saving Private Ryan anime....

@NEStalgia But ask most of those people what they think and we're toxic fan boys and miserable old men teetering somewhere between irrelevance and death. So, it doesn't really matter to them. I can at least appreciate that a lot of online MP games are mostly built around a core gameplay loop, so it's at least more gamey than FFXVI featuring eleven hours of cutscenes. There's an influencer on Twitter named Shepshal Nick, and the guy will flat out tell you he skips all the cutscenes in every single game. Period. I applaud the man at least because he's sending the message that all he cares about is actually PLAYING the game. Which seems to be the opposite of most these days.

@NEStalgia Also, Fire Emblem Engage is spectacular. The gameplay is probably the best FE gameplay, period. In so many ways, it's cringe anime sorta like Tokyo Mirage Session. It really feels more like an FE spinoff, than a main entry, and maybe it is? I love it tho, even Toothpaste Chan.

@SplooshDmg It's basically a repeat of when people thought books were doomed, obsolete and old fashioned once moving picture shows happened. What I want to know is who all these people are that clearly have high incomes to keep advocating luxury costs in gaming while also being illiterate and unable to completed something beyond a slightly more interactive boob tube. Seriously something is broken beyond repair in modern humans.

Huh I didn't care at all about fe engage. But I love love tms.... So maybe? Only thing is I just don't feel srpgs in general anymore. I take too long deciding on moves and it becomes a slog. I'll analyze one move for 20 minutes and it'll still end up being a bad one 😫

Edit: there's also something sad about the modern game being morning a phone call simulator. Also sad when shooting mooks in imaginary Afghanistan and playing soldier counts as "hanging out". I'm sure they could get free airfare to "hang out" in Ukraine for realizes doing that. Isn't that better?

@NEStalgia The Dunning Kruger Effect is real. That's how.

I mean, if you have just fallen off the SRPG wagon, then there's nothing to see here. The characters are like, not typical FE characters at all. It's like, a bunch of very, very idol influenced character design, along with returning favorites like Marth and Michiah. It's like, Fire Emblems Greatest Hits Vol. 1 + a splash of weird wannabe JPOP characters. You can at least save scum it now and reload your game if you don't like your move. Either way, I'm so glad I bought it. I absolutely love it. I still need to finish TMS FE. I'll get there sooner or later, but so far I love it too.