The next generation of Xbox has already seen the release of many stunning and expansive games, but the trade-off, as noted by many fans, seems to be longer development times.
Xbox Game Studios boss Matt Booty recently addressed this during a chat with Axios - explaining how the industry and fans are "a little behind the curve". The big budget games Microsoft mainly publishes no longer take "two or three years" but more "four and five and six years", according to Booty.
Matt further explained how this longer creation process is simply because of the sheer complexity of modern games and the requirements to reach higher technical marks when it comes to graphics and performance.
He went on to mention how the extra time to make big budget releases wasn't exclusive to the pandemic, and unfortunately, it's something that he thinks is here to stay. Keep in mind, Booty is specifically referring to AAA titles here and believes smaller teams may still be able to put out certain indie experiences quicker.
These comments follow news earlier this week about Xbox's plans to ideally deliver at least four exclusives per-year. Of course, this requires a lot of work years in advance, and it doesn't always go to plan, with many publishers making tough decisions to delay projects that require more development time.
Xbox Boss Phil Spencer also recently mentioned during this week's Giant Bomb sit-down interview how every one of Xbox's QA staff is apparently playing Starfield - looking at bug counts and the overall quality of the experience. It's not only taken over half a decade to develop, but it's also a massive collaborative effort.
A number of other large-scale releases this year like Blizzard's Diablo 4 and Nintendo's new Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom game have also gone through incredibly lengthy development cycles.
How do you feel about having to wait longer for these next-generation first-party titles from Xbox? Comment below.
[source axios.com, via twitter.com]
Comments 103
That’s why owning more and more studios will be a huge advantage. Once you can get them all on off year releases you can have a nice output per year. Turning Xbox into arguably the place with the most games to play. Support studios are going to play a big role as well.
Considering the state many games are launching in, he could be right.
Zelda, Metroid and Mario fans over here like, “New in town? Welcome to the club!”
@Sam_TSM Totally agree. I honestly preferred 2 gens ago when a trilogy was every other year and completed in one generation. This new photorealistic obsession where trilogies literally span the entire functional gaming lifetime of someone in the gaming demographic is absurd. I'd really like to go back to simpler visuals with better performance and realistic development time, follow ups, and production costs.
The industry did this to themselves. Nobody threatened to not buy games if they weren't photo-realistic. Gpu markers insisted that's how it must be and the industry marched in lock step with it because they felt like it.
@NEStalgia Well said! I think that maybe now people will start understanding why Miyamoto said there was a ceiling on graphics, and why Nintendo took a laid back position with their console capabilities. No point in having the most powerful gpu if it’s just gonna take you even longer periods to take advantage of.
Do wish the Switch had a bit more power so multiplat ports would be easier, but that’s another topic.
@Green-Bandit sadly xbox studios doesnt include any that are support studios, they should make at least 3 support studios for all those 23 studios to stay on track and better the quality
Sony has only 20 studio 8 of them are support studios which is great, but sadly PS fans are on for a taugh gen.... If games takes +4 years and sony using most of their studios to devolop live service games... Sony fans will have like 1 or 2 maximum SP exclsuivea per year for what left of this generation till those live service came out and fail so they can maybe get back to focus on what their fans want... Single player games
@Kaloudz no doubt, let’s not forget, we didn’t see Indiana Jones, Gears, I.D next project, contraband, Perfect Dark and Rare’s everwild. You add that into what they did have and showed and that is a lot of games coming to GP. Also we as Xbox fan’s have asked for more single player games with great world’s and characters and they have that now. I am not going to get into Xbox Vs Sony first party war talk. Does Sony have a better cast of single player games and characters, maybe, Spider-Man is Spider-man that will sell on it’s own, Last of Us, God of war, but Xbox had next to nothing compared to those Sony IP’s with the Xbox one. Now they do, wether they are going to move players that left to PS4 after 360 is hard to tell. But i do believe they are on the right track and need to deliver on these games, there can’t be a RedFall or two in there. But they have loads of games in development. The Xbox has no games is over.
@TakeItEasy that is a great point and i agree, MS needs more support studios and those aren’t easy to find and acquire. But i am sure Phil and company are always on the lookout and that is a huge need with this many games in development, GP has to have titles to keep player engagement. 3-4 bangers a year is needed. Yeah Sony is in an interesting spot with its live service craze. But Spider Man 2 and then Wolverine will sell gang busters. Plus they said not all the live service games are online shooters. So maybe they have stuff that caters to their audience, but we don’t know yet. 😊
@Kaloudz Hahaha it made me rub my eyes and refocus, i was like what happened? Ahaha
I can see game development doing what movie production had to do … produce concurrently. I remember back in the day Back to the Future did big box office that they shot 2 & 3 at the same time to save time…
yeah now they release broken games
@Sam_TSM If Matt Booty is saying fans were late/last to realise that big budget games now take longer than 2-3 years to develop, maybe it will finally click with some people when they read his latest comments.
It's also interesting to hear how Xbox has allocated what sounds like the majority of its QA staff to Starfield. The scale of this game is huge (even from a collaborative perspective), so it's understandable why games are now taking more than half a decade to craft.
Ok. Expect me not to pay $70 for them when they finally release as a buggy mess after having to wait 6 years 🤷
@Sam_TSM I agree to an extent on the chase for photo realism. I’ve been annoyed about this for a while. But that isn’t the only thing that is leading to longer development times. More systems driven games, which have many interlocking systems take a long time to design, develop, iterate many times, test and bug fix. The gameplay loops are MUCH more complicated nowadays. If we went back 2-3 generations games were much simpler.
For proof look at someone like Nintendo. How long does a new Zelda, Mario or Mario Kart take where graphics and photo realism aren’t the issue, it’s still a long time, likely with soft reboots and ideas that failed along the way. Good games, and good gameplay, take a long time. There are exceptions but that’s the general rule.
Employ more devs?🤷♂️
Just give us an amazing halo game and stop whining!
@Sam_TSM from my understanding Miyamoto isn’t very involved at all in the day to day of game creation, and hasn’t been for a while. He remains as a figurehead and adviser (they likely run some builds and ideas past him and he MAY be working on Pikmin) and because their stock price would take a massive hit if he retired.
AAA can't die soon enough IMO. These budgets are time-frames are insane. Smaller projects, tighter budgets, stricter deadlines, and appeal to a niche instead of trying to make every game for every body and ultimately pleasing no-one.
And hire people that actually like the games you're making to avoid the Halo situation.
It's all gaslighting. The reality is all of the game developing stars from yesteryear who were extremely intelligent and proper geeks working in an often maligned industry have been swapped with posers and marketing.
Games take twice as long! Give us double the money!
No way did some of the dross we have been seeing the last few years have the same amount of work put in, like the original gears of war or final fantasy 10.
If a game is designed in a boardroom according to trend analysis and focus groups it's always going to take longer, than just developing what your heart desires.
doesn't sound great, like one game per new console from AAA devs.
@Green-Bandit live service market is a very huge market in profit but very few games are having success, sony doesn't have the experience in the field and ps fanboys actually buys the console for its single player not for live service i m gonna give it 90% fail rate
2nd spiderman games are too much and its likw assassin's creed recycling once again 1st was fun and new others are copy past more like dlcs, yes they will sell but having a single or 2 exclsuives a year will have playstation under pressure people doesnt buy a console to play 2 games they can finish in 30h and then thats it
Its now the time for xbox to shine! 4 exclusives a year and gamepass kicking ps plus premuim 18$ a** and if ABK deal sealed xbox will dominate in many area with western RPGs (elderscroll, avowed, fallout, starfield, wasteland, the outer world...) and in FPS single player(Halo, doom, wolfenstein, quake, dishonored, prey, deathloop, rage, (fallout and the outerworld in a way)
Finally microsoft actually have very successful live service games (elder scroll online, grounded, halo infinite, fallout 76, sea of theives, minecraft, forza horizon)
If we add overwatch COD heart stone to these....
Xbox got potential to be great again and beat sony!! Just look how uncomfortable and angry are ps fanboys now just knowing that only spiderman 2 is coming in 2023 and nothing known about 2024 juat imagine this happening next 4 years!!!
There fans are losing it just looking into starfield probably the biggest game of thos gen not on PS and they try to downgrade it with the 30fps argument.... When starfield and forza will go out they will do serious demage and PS fans will lose their temper
As someone who watched PS and their fans getting arrogant unrespctful to any other gamer im gonna enjoy this (till xbox get arrogant too its the cycle of console life)
Half the games released now don't finish development till a year after release lol.
@TakeItEasy Why are you always ranting and raving about Sony?
That's fine but I atleast expect the games to be finished and in a great state. I don't want to be waiting 6 years just to recieve a broken game like Redfall or unfinished like the Nintendo sports games etc.
See kids we used to play video games, remember those ? Lol
I honestly don’t care who is releasing games. I just want good games. If devs overall released more robust games, I would feel less of the draughts. Instead recently it’s just a ton of pixel side scroller games or broken AAA experiences that need to be patched for 6 or more months.
Here I like anybody who releases demos and gets me hooked. That way I bought several Square ENIX and Capcom games
That's obvious and has been obvious for years that games are taking longer. Take Sucker Punch that released Infamous 2nd Son in 2014, their next game, Ghost of Tsushima, arrived in 2020 - 6yrs later. Forza Motorsport 7 released in 2017 and its taken 6yrs to rebuild Forza from scratch. Guerilla Games took over 5yrs between Horizon:ZD and Forbidden West.
Unless a game has a LOT of Assets/game-play code etc from a Previous game that can be carried forward, Games are taking more than 4yrs to make and even then, many aren't actually 'ready' to release.
I've been saying for quite a while that Gamers are in touch with reality, a game in 'pre-production' is expected within a year or two at most and if its not released, then its 'Lazy' studios, poor management etc. Then they are extremely critical of managers that put pressure on Devs, force them to crunch to hit deadlines etc instead of giving them the time to craft a great experience...
Well that could possibly decrease the backlog I have built over the recent years 😆
@Dm9982 I don't think Nintendo is a good example of releasing new games in their IPs regularly and consistently even after having acquired studios and outsourced games with more or less success.
The biggest problem with this is the fact the games are releasing on out of date engines. Realistically big AAA games need to start moving to 3rd party engines like unreal 5 and ensuring that games can been built quicker and updated throughout the process with new updates from unreal. Developers don’t have time to maintain and update game engines whilst also building huge games and the end results we are seeing show just how limited some of these engines are. I’m not saying unreal is even the answer but something has to give whereby the engines aren’t part of a game development process they’re managed by 3rd parties and games are easier, faster and more efficient.
Maybe I’m wrong, but from the outside looking in this seems to be the best direction long term.
@TakeItEasy That's probably why they are trying to use Spider-Man sequels as the reason to justify PS5's existence.
@Giantkiller Yes, many developers moved to Unreal Engine 5. They realised that using a top-notch universal engine updated and supported by a third party is how they can make the most of their development time, even after having spent years developing in-house engines that are actually impressive like Square Enix. Most Xbox Game Studios are also working on Unreal Engine 5. This will hopefully help studios in this new era.
@Banjo- I Was specifically referring to the time frame. Zelda, Mario, and Metroid all have historically has long periods in between releases save for a select few in their series. That’s all I was saying. At least us Nintendo and Xbox fans aren’t dealing with what Castlevania fans are…. No new update to the IP since the days of DS - minus the Apple Arcade title which doesn’t play like SOTN, the GBA titles, or the DS ones….
If Starfield is as good as it looks...I'm fine waiting on new titles. It's gonna take over my life for a few years as is.
@Dm9982 I understand you now. As a long-time Nintendo fan, I've been starving for years. It doesn't help that I bought everything I wanted for Wii U before Switch came, that I don't like the radical change in The Legend of Zelda series and that Super Mario Odyssey failed to satisfy me after having loved the older Zelda and Mario 3D games. On top of that, no Donkey Kong, no Star Fox, no Wave Race, no F-Zero but a 1-2-Switch sequel... At least, we are finally getting Pikmin 4 and, some day, Metroid Prime 4.
As Long as the game doesn't release broken like most games are then it's doenst matter matter how long the games take charging 70 for a broken game is theft through and through it needs to stop and then charging for microtransactions on top of that it's criminal
the industry need to go back to xbox one level of games and everything would be 60 fps and shorter dev times.
@TakeItEasy there is no fan base I would like to see be humbled more than PS fan’s. You made great points, i agree MS has the games & services to be a force and Sony best be careful with it live service games. Things are finally started to heat up and take shape this gen and Xbox is finally starting to look good. I seen many on Push Square say they are buying an Xbox for Starfield. So that was big to see. I am liking where this is going for team green. But there’s still a lot of work to be done.
4-6 year development cycles aren't an issue; 4-6 year marketing cycles are.
@Rangers420 because they are arrogant and treat gamers like s**t still people praise them and media is siding with them and even more their fans are double standards, so yeah im soooo disliking the brand and its fans right now
@Banjo- spiderman 2 is gannanbe big because spiderman got lot of fans and the games was good now i think of it like fifa/assassin creed/Cod where i get exhausted from close window releases and same mechanics and gameplay
Let spiderman, gow and horizon have a cool down do something else! But sadly they are focusing on live service games... How many did i enjoy of those? Maybe the car soccer thing (i forget the name) and warzone 1 for some time... Thats it, your fan love SP so why keeping more than half of your studios busy on live service? How many games would they be able to make a year? Would it be enough or tbey ganna buy 3rd party games to fill that gap?
@TakeItEasy I would never have imagined that Xbox would have more single-player games than PS!
What worries me is when you hear about games taking years and years of development, but really the game is actually just put together in a mad rush in a year. Anthem and Redfall come to mind as examples there when years and years are wasted.
@themightyant "The gameplay loops are MUCH more complicated nowadays. If we went back 2-3 generations games were much simpler."
I'm not convinced that's a good thing. At all. For non-devout gamers the modern games are virtually indecipherable brick walls, even those that loosely casually gamed 2 gens ago, and even for devout gamers the convoluted input schemes and overlapping menu systems have got to the point of more often being in the way than being beneficial. That includes totk with a control system from hell that catches me up on a continuous basis where I'd liken the interface to Zelda 2 which isn't really a good thing and Miyamoto would agree. It includes GoW where an otherwise linear action slasher is layered with convoluted menus it doesn't actually need and pace breaking easter egg puzzles I don't think it benefits from. Something complex like Skryim (we'll see about starfield) isn't a bad thing, but even Skryim with its myriad systems is in its core gameplay loop far simpler and more comprehensible than a lot of modern kitchen sink design. Heck the Goty Elden Ring has about as simplistic a gameplay loop imaginable that would be at home 20 years ago. What it adds is simply a complex labyrinthine overworld level design.
@Banjo- "I would never have imagined that Xbox would have more single-player games than PS!"
And a showcase with more spoken Japanese, lol.
@TakeItEasy " your fan love SP so why keeping more than half of your studios busy on live service?"
That's been my core problem with Ryan's PS. They're not interested in the fans. At all. They figured out the fans aren't where the money is. That "blue ocean" of casual service players is where the money is. Fans just haven't stopped trying to rationalize that they've been left at the altar yet. Sometimes I even forget it. Some are starting to figure it out after that last showcase though. It's easier for me to see, as a Nintendo fan, I've been through this before.
NEStalgia wrote:
The superiority that some staffers and users at PS pretend to represent has been shattered into pieces.
@TakeItEasy why are folk saying Playstation is moving to live service games? Because they showed a few at the showcase an only showed 1 exclusive, 2 if ya count FF16? Playstation know they’re number 1 because they make the best exclusives, no way are they gonna drop this. Live service games are as well as. There are plenty of Playstation exclusives in the pipeline, they’ll show them soon enough. Xbox has released 2 exclusives in the last 2 an half years!! That’s less than 1 per year!!! This year they have Redfall, Starfield an Forza. Redfall an Starfield were meant to be 3rd party games, Forza is fantastic but years old.
@NEStalgia I sort of agree and they are DEFINITELY impenetrable to many. But then when I play many modern games with very few systems or simple mechanics I often think, "cool game, but a bit basic". It's rare I find a game with really simple mechanics that just nails it so well that it's a dream. Death's Door was probably the last, or Tunic but that was doing amazing things in other areas.
I also think it's one of those things where making something really simple but amazing is harder than just throwing lots of ideas together to build something that at least feels a little new.
@Banjo- if you told me this in xbox one era i wouldve said, stay away psycho!
But honestly i was telling my best friend who was also a ponie back in the 360 era that microsoft is so rich and if they only support xbox as they should sony will be no more
Better late than never finally xbox bought lot of studios and looking strong, but they have lot of dirt in xbox one and have lot of haters, also they need better inhouse management, Microsoft need to have a long breath to erase the past and gain fans trust back
@themightyant I'm sure it's harder to make, but that doesn't mean the alternative is a good thing. I do think it goes beyond gamers understand but non gamers struggle though, I often play modern games just thinking how obnoxious the complexity is. We've learned to go through the motions and deal with it without stepping back and thinking of it's actually fun or not. The fact that the core gamers keep clamoring for remakes of old games is imo telling that even the core really prefers the simpler but will executed loops if older designs, keeps searching for it and not finding it
@Lastatopiny you want the logic way ? Or you want the "i will please you" way?
If you want to be right i tell you: your right PS will never do that
The logical way: sony owns 20 studios 8 of them are support/porting studios
So 20-8=12, bungie is staying multiplatfrom like always (marathon is on xbox) that leave you with 11, if you choose to believe that Rayan Playstation CEO they are working on 12 live service game.... Thats at least 6 studios there and im being generous here guessing that each studio can work on 2 live service games
That keep you with 5 studios to make games.... You can follow till now right? Lets say each studios can make a AAA game in 4 years that's 1.25 game per year....if the live service games failed they need another 4 years after the failing games thats like 7 or 8 ywars from now
Sony is in the lead and they know they have diehard fans that will fight for their cause and they will use them, corporations always get cocky and try to rub their fans same goes for nintendo and xbox, sony is the dominating console so its there time to shine.... Putting dirt in their fans eyes
@Banjo- please go now to n4g you will have the best fun, ps fanboy are getting crazy and try to downgrade anything Xbox in a childish way almost imagining them crying while writing those comments lol
@NEStalgia if you think any coorpo cares your ganna be hugely disappointed, the leader represent the phase the coorpo is in, when they are in taugh position they play nice and have a lovely CEO they win the fanbase they put a business driven CEO (don matrick/rayan) it will always be the same
@NEStalgia Sometimes, that's how I feel about certain modern games. Why do I have to learn all this? It only makes sense if it improves or makes the gameplay deeper, e.g., a fighting game but learning the weird menus and fragmented gameplay elements just because they decided to make a very complicated and artificially long game is not fun.
@NEStalgia Not sure i'd draw that conclusion from gamers liking remakes, it just humans like to experience things they liked that are a known quantity: Movies, TV books etc.
I agree some games are complex to control, and a large barrier to entry for NEW players, but we need to be catered for too right? You don't want everything to be press one button to do everything, that was Balan Wonderworld
@Banjo- Same here. While I think a lot of passion and creativity went into the Mario 3D titles post N64, I still think Mario 64 has the most heart and best level designs in Mario 3D. Same with Zelda, OoT is still my favorite 3D Zelda. Wind Waker was pretty, but overall felt more empty, and I wasn’t a huge cel shade fan at the time. Twilight was gorgeous for its time, but felt like an over stuffed OoT. Never played Skyward cause I don’t enjoy motion controls in action/adventure games. BotW had much of that same shock as Wind Waker did for me - “this is not Zelda as I know it”. Once I quit thinking of it as Zelda, and approached it as if it were Skyrim/Fallout, I enjoyed it a lot more. But I still don’t feel like it’s a Zelda title, lol.
Funny thing about Mario Odyssey, I’ve found myself enjoying it more watching my kiddos play it than I did when I played through.
And you just brought up fighting games. I grew up with the OGs of Street Fighter 2, MK1, and Killer Instinct. And yeah I’ve done the old 15 button input brutalities on MK3, Lordy those were a chore. I’ve played most of the latest fighters here and there, and while there’s some nice stuff, honestly the best addition to these newer fighters is “modern” control schemes. SF6 is so much more fluid than SF4 or 5, or any other fighter bar DBFighterZ which is just the perfect setup. I swear no genre, besides MAYBE point n click, has escaped bloating of systems over the years
@Kaloudz @TakeItEasy They are more active now because of the ABK deal and because Microsoft had the best show but even when Game Pass was gaining traction, they were obsessed with spreading lies about Microsoft losing money and that it didn't make sense as a business model until Sony copied the model. I've read people here saying that Game Pass only has Game Boy games.
They have been bashing Microsoft for only having multiplayer games and now Sony is focusing on MMOGs. They said that Sony was the true new generation because Microsoft was supporting Xbox One for a few more years and then every PS5 exclusive became a PS4-5 game with a Windows version. True that Sony made them believe that but they will defend whatever Sony does even when they do the opposite of what they said they would. These people would never admit that an awesome game like Starfield or Fable is awesome because it's not a Spider-Man exclusive.
@Dm9982 What do you think of Street Fighter 6? I still have to buy it. Please tell me, ha ha. Have you tried the classic controls? What do you mean by more fluid?
Your kids enjoy Super Mario Odyssey that much because it's very infantile 😁. It's more fun watching your kids playing it, indeed. I don't have kids but I can imagine. My favourites are Super Mario 64 and Sunshine.
I have bashed Breath of the Wild as a The Legend of Zelda fan but I know what you mean. My favourites are Ocarina of Time, such perfect game, Majora's Mask and its dynamic world and Twilight Princess which is amazing. I agree about The Wind Waker, some good dungeons but most of the game is bare-bones.
@Banjo- SF6 is good. Way better than any other SF game in the last few generations. And yeah I play on and off between Classic and Modern. Modern you’re stymied into a little less control over your character - 3 basic attacks instead of 6, and no variation on Supers. Classic is superior for overall control and it’s still very fluid.
Ken plays well either style. Juni I think her name is, the one that only uses her feet, I can tell she’d be much better with classic style. Feels kinda pigeon holed with Modern. Also played Zangief on Classic and Modern. He transitions well too between the styles.
I haven’t messed with the World Tour yet or Battle Hub. Though I’m REALLY interested in starting the World Tour. The last time I was this excited for a fighting game was Def Jam Vendetta. Something about making your own fighter in an rpg setting is just amazing.
Edit - forgot to explain the fluid part. Hits transitioning into other hits/throws/etc seem a lot more fluid and smooth than in previous entries. Maybe the input frames are spot on or something. But combos aren’t hard to pull off, and the game isn’t modeled after stringing together the biggest combo you can. Instead it’s 1-2 hits then a throw, or a super. Then back and repeat. Sure there are bigger combos, but for the most part that’s how the game is modeled, and it gives it a more natural sense of pace, almost like a real fight.
Give me a fun game with mid graphics and I'll be fine. Gameplay is the important part. Graphics is a luxury.
@Banjo- in my view thats why Phil said xbox will never win in console war, ps fanboys are from another level i never seen such fans in any other field
@TakeItEasy Yep, that's why I used to say on the XB NL thread before PXB relaunched that I want Xbox to lose. They're very good and customer friendly in the underdog position and as long as they're losing just enough to not close up, it's the best option. If they suddenly win that's the end and it becomes miserable.
@Dm9982 Thanks! I will play with an arcade stick so I would like to play with classic controls as I'm used to using all the buttons.
I don't like III and IV very much. I like Charlie Nash in Alpha and V. He looks a bit like me except for the big muscles LOL. Too bad he's not in VI so far. I learned some long combos in V for Nash but truth is pulling them off in a real battle is difficult. Most of them I learned from someone on Twitter but one of the combos I made it myself.
I wonder who will be my character in VI. My memory is not the best so I try to focus on one thing/character. I like Chun-Li and Cammy in the old games but I prefer male characters now. Cammy is challenging to use in SSFII because it doesn't cause much damage and she is weak face to face so you have to use low, counter and airborne moves. It's cool. Nash is also a lot of fun to use, in my opinion and has great and classy airborne moves. I have always considered Ryu and Ken boring to control.
What you are describing about the gameplay in SFVI sounds perfect to me 👌🏻. I'm more excited about it now thanks to you. I'm also interested in the World Tour mode.
@TakeItEasy Right. I forgot to mention that I also agree with you and others that say that Phil is too hands-off.
@themightyant Better Balan Wonderworld than Forspoken
That said, from what I'm seeing, better Forspoken than FF16........... or should I call it Kingsglaive 2?
That's the thing though...IDK if it's about "catering to us"....cool as totk's systems are I find myself saying "I didn't ask for this." I like it...but the controls are overbearing and unimaginative. I'm not sure why that doesn't get called out. The use of the bumper + dpad is egregious, the ultrahand mechanism is functionally great but mechanically dubious, and fusion is just....awful. I still like the game. Fusion aside I like how the abilities function in terms of the whole world puzzle, and a slightly different standard applies to zelda as the world is intended to be a puzzle, but I still feel it's joining the chorus of overlapping overly complex controls that neither work for new players nor vets. We can "put up with it" better, but I'd rather have "good" rater than "be able to put up with" bad. When even Nintendo starts veering off into control systems that are awkward to manage, things are waaaay off kilter.
Even a game like Ghostwire....it's cool, I like it...but instead of a really refined gameplay loop it goes back to myriad overlapping control systems for different aspects of things rather than really honing one.
Again I go back to Elden Ring. I really really don't like Soulsborne, I don't like the combat, I don't like the pretension, but credit where it's due, they got one thing right and they're rewarded for it: The core loop is simple, uncomplicated, addictive, highly polished, yet not dumbed down for the core. I don't love what they do, but I acknowledge they do it super well.
Diablo is another great example of that philosophy and is rewarded for it. yes the games systems for loot and stats is complex, but that's complex INFORMATION management, not complex play loops and input. The actual gameplay loop is simple, well honed, and very focused. And it stands the test of time because of that.
@Banjo- Yeah. And I experience both my own annoyances as a "gamer" and also through the eyes of a more casual gamer that used to love games 10 years ago but struggle with the modern games....I try to explain and...it's one of those things as you try to explain out loud to someone how it works...and then find yourself contradicting yourself over and over, and explaining how a thing works one way at one time then another way at another time, except if a certain effect is on screen in the corner then you do it the original way but if a different effect is on screen ti means something totally different, and then you have to go into a menu first, and then do this, except if there's this other thing....and I start to realize, I can't even verbally explain how to do it. Any explanation or description or tutorial I can offer is good for exactly 5 minutes of gameplay and then it's upended and contradicted again. When you try to do that you realize how bad the design is. If it's something that can't even be explained by someone that knows what they're doing, to someone that's not a total novice at it, and any explanation is self-contradictory repeatedly and constantly conditional.....it's actually poor design, even if gamers have learned to process it as natural, it's just not. And then you look at the really well designed games....and you CAN explain them. Nobody can not explain Diablo. Nobody can fail to learn Diablo.
Then we look at "accessibility" settings, "story mode" settings, crutch play.....and I start to tell people to just use that...because they can't figure out the systems themselves and I frankly can't explain them in any way that consistently lasts, everything is procure on site, re-assess on the fly. If you don't already know what you're doing you can't figure out what to do. And then we wonder why console sales have been stagnant since the 80's and mobile games ballooned.
The old joke was just adding more buttons to the controller, and we're very much there.
@NEStalgia Diablo 2 is a really good example of a game done so well, it’s worth continuing playing 20+ years later. D4 is fun, and a lot better than D3. But D2 is like a slot machine that occasionally rewards your dopamine with an overload of glory…..
Like ya said, easy to pick up and understand, controls and interface aren’t overbearing - D4 is a little bit more bloated here tho, but not much. And it’s stat management. Elden/Dark are just the opposite, not much info to manage, some stats here and there, but a simple control interface…. Dodge/Parry, Counter and repeat till dead.
@Banjo- You’re welcome! Yeah I wasn’t going to buy into SF6 until I saw the World Tour / Custom char stuff, AND I watched a few live streams on TikTok. Slower more deliberate fights, which isn’t a bad thing. Closer to MK11 style but without ultra long combo strings with complex timing/memorization. And I like the adjustments to Ken. He use to be flash, flare and fast. Now he’s focused and more pin point attacking.
@NEStalgia Unnatural is one adjective I used before editing my comment and writing fragmented but it's all that, in the way that you described. That's why I only buy games that I know I'll like, the rest I try first even if they are massively recommended. One exception was Monster Hunter Tri on Wii and it's a bit complicated but after a few days I loved it.
What I really hate is when controls and menus are unnecessarily complicated and unnatural and it's all fragmented and random or the opposite of what you'd expect or the opposite of what the game taught you five minutes earlier, when controls change if you are in a battle or exploring the world... Or when things could be mapped to a button but you have to open a menu to find it... My Miiverse review of Breath of the Wild mentioned a few of these things, hoping for Nintendo to read them. Maybe you agree with something. "Pause-to-play", I love that part.
I would love watching Eiji Aonuma reading this.
@Dm9982 I like the slower gameplay! For me it's a good thing, too. Fast gameplay in fighting games don't give me enough time to learn how to react. Street Fighter VI seems perfect in my opinion. I will download the demo and buy the game soon, very likely. Just a bit more of 30th Anniversary and SFV in the meantime.
Don't you think SFII was so great because it was somewhat slow? I haven't played MK11.
I love Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Shredder's Revenge because it has the perfect speed for letting me learn how to react. My favourite beat 'em up game.
@TakeItEasy working on can mean anything. It can mean 3 guys in a room. You really think they have 12 live service games full hands on an well on their way? Naughty Dog for one have TLOU Factions well on the way and they’ve said they’re making a brand new ip.
@Banjo- Fragmented is a great word as well becase there are so many games where different subsystems don't really seem connected and/or use different design philosophies in how each system works (or worse, contextually-sensitive control schemes or even game-play designs. I never realized how common that is until I keep trying to explain games verbally and that trips me up more than any other. Anything you describe to someone is only how something works in one particular situation and an any other situation it's all completely different. I didn't realize how invasive that is until I experienced such frustration trying to explain it. Nothing I explain has value because it's not useful 5 seconds later or even ever again in the game, and worse the same thing backfires by being the reverse in the next moments. It degernerates into "just mess around and figure it out yourself" which then just results in moving onto a new game and the same ensues.)
Heck, I love P5, and you expect it a bit with games like that, but I'm like half way through the game and still getting gigantic tutorials on new systems being introduced....just....why is that necessary? Great game, but "modern" bloat creeping into a series that's always been complex but streamlined.
I have some agreement and also a different take on botw. I think that was more grounded than totk that does some interesting new things, and clearly builds on existing knowledge of botw (totk would be REALLY rough IMO if you didn't play botw first, but that's fine it's a same platform sequel). I have mixed feelings about the dungeons. On one hand I thing botw channeled the first game where it was relaly mostly about the overworld, not the later aonuma dungeons. OTOH, the ORIGINAL zelda prototype Miyamoto made was only dungeons, with no overworld at all, playtesting told him it was boring, so he added the overworld. And then that kind of stole the show.
But I think some of your criticisms that may have seemed exaggerated for botw have come back and made your earlier criticism seem prescient. The importance of cooking is elevated in totk, and the pause, go into menu, select each item to hold, leave menu, press to drop......it's just poor design completely. I have a LOT of UI niggles about totk. Some of it carries over from botw but the frequency and urgency you need them in totk makes them go for "slightly unnatural" to "severely annoying."
The fact that as a seasoned gamer that regularly plays anything and everything in every platform including VR, frequently hits the wrong button between left bumper and dpad options while trying to do things in that game smacks of an unintuative interface that feels unnatural.
I do like the game, it's not that I don't think there's a lot great about it. But I think ti's not criticized as it should be on some important fundamentals that to me interfere with total enjoyment in a way that even botw I was able to ignore and enjoy.
@Banjo- I Concur, SF2 was basically the pinnacle of SF I think. I prefer the New Challengers Version cause Fei Long was just so fun. I’ve been half tempted a time or two to grab the 30th anni compilation or the Switch remaster.
DBFighterZ suffers from the “so fast can’t react” just like Smash Bros (which I enjoy, but so much going on on the screen it’s hard to tell wth is happening half the time), however DBFZ does have a super easy control setup to make things so much easier. Highly recommend that one to any fighting fan, and you can get it on sale on Xbox or Switch for like $9, $14 if you wanna all the fighter passes too.
@NEStalgia Yes, I somehow foretold a problem with the controls. In Tears of the Kingdom it's double trouble. It makes Breath of the Wild look purer because it's more focused on exploration than on controls. Tears of the Kingdom continuously throw workload in your face that you can't deal with in an intuitive manner.
@Dm9982 Yes, I mean SSFII which is the SFII game that I have played the most. It has the right speed and great additions.
I'll add the Dragon Ball fighter to the list. Do you have an Xbox to add you, in between?
@Banjo- Sure gamer tag is the same as my user on here. Mainly been playing Diablo 4 lately, but I’m down for some mess around matches on SF6 when ya get it.
@Banjo- I agree. I really enjoyed botw, so I generally was the opposite of you on that game. Totk I have significantly more mixed feelings on. There's a lot there that's good. There's a whole gameplay loop that's wholly unique and worth playing. And yet there's a lot of egregious design I can't ignore, and find myself comparing it very unfavorably to my botw experience. I think that comes down to the controls and the focus on them. It feels like I'm thinking more about control sequences than solving the darn puzzle before me to the point that I'll end up stumped and wandering, having forgotten to just use the vertical traversal skill or something. Some controls that are teh same as botw (right and up on the dpad) somehow seem like a problem now. The fire arrows are annoying. Weapon selection is somehow annoying me a lot and didn't bother me all that much in botw. Probably because with fusion it's much more in your face. And I can't forgive the cooking menu. I see what they wanted to do, and the whole building concept is great. But I think they overthought the systems which is uncharacteristic of nintendo.
@Dm9982 Cool. I'll try Diablo if it comes to Game Pass when the acquisition is concluded. I have so much to play now ha ha.
@NEStalgia Tears of the Kingdom recycled the world but added irrelevant planes as filler, sky islands and depths, and saturated the main world. The vertical traversal skill is functional yet gimmicky since they created unnecessary planes. It's a bloated and cluttered world with awkward mechanics and controls. I thought that the Nuts & Bolts thing would be fun but they didn't make it fun and addictive as in Banjo-Kazooie. Nintendo just added stuff and stuff to the sequel to make the same world busier and different.
@Banjo- The vertical skill along with the time reversal skill seem like "traditional" zelda tools/skills imo. Fusion seems like an annoying waste of a slot that adds not real value to gameplay, just tedious busy work for the doubled-down-upon breakable weapons. Ultrahand/nuts & bolts, overall is very good. But the controls are terrible for it. It's not the worst problem in the game, but it's really not a great control set for it which IMO harms the fun of it a little. It's an interesting free form puzzle solver. But I agree, the charm of botw was the emptiness. An open world with physics systems that you just....explored....wherever you wanted was the charm. A lot was added but a lot of it doesn't add fun (the depths in the dark with that "menu, glow item, exit menu, smack it" mechanic isn't what made botw great.)
I probably sound harsher on the game than I really am, there's a lot I DO like a bout what it tries to do. But there's aspects I find irritating about it compared to botw that I don't see much discussion of, namely the controls/convoluted menu use for things (cooking, darkness, fusion/equipment, elemental arrows etc), finnicky ultrahand controls, the extreme emphasis on extreme hazard atmospheres that depend on cooking with scarce resources and annoying cooking (menu, wood, flint, exit menu, smack it, menu, hold food 1, hold food 2, hold food 3, exit menu, A to drop) or gear that's too expensive to buy without finding the right thing in the right spot to grind to sell. It's ACNH but with challenges. shudder
Ok, it's not nearly as dire as ACNH. totk is a good game inside a lot of annoyances. ACNH is just the spawn of a furry ringtailed satan.
@NEStalgia off topic for this article but, I’d love to know your thoughts on the FF16 demo, assuming you’ve played it?
@NEStalgia But that's because 99% of the reviewers and the vocal die-hard fans are ridiculously presumptuous and flattering about Nintendo's flagship titles. You can talk about the good things but also talk about the bad things and describe the technical aspects that you mention when talking about any other publisher.
Before Breath of the Wild was released, I perceived something was not right. The letters and probably more things that the reviewers received before the game's launch were suspicious. When Breath of the Wild was presented, on the NL live chat the first things I read literally two seconds after the video started were Breath of the Wild, impressive, game of the year, amazing, beautiful, breathtaking... It was an artificial self-induced hype festival. Literally, all they had seen was the title and the grass of an empty field that looked very much like Swyward Sword on Wii.
Nobody reviewed the Wii U version. I understand that Switch was the new thing but why not review both versions? Nobody played the Wii U version but me? Was it released or did I break into Nintendo's headquarters to get my copy? The Wii U version was not properly patched either. They released superficial patches like one for arrows farming but the Wii U version still plays like a slideshow in the tiny villages of Breath of the Wild. It wasn't patched but it added the same overpriced DLC.
@Banjo- Go for D4 if you want a more laid back approach to an rpg. Nice dark theme, and such but it’s still laid back comparatively. D2 is a more rewarding game, still with easy controls. But don’t let that fool you, Hell mode (lvl 70+) can be no joke to the newcomer. I suggest rolling a summon Necro, or Hammerdin build Paladin for starting in D2 so you can beat Hell and start hearing other chars.
D2 also has more soft walls, where it’s encouraged to go back and farm bosses a bit for better gear before progressing.
D2 as a whole operates a LOT like Borderlands 2 (half the team that made BL2 are from the original team that made D2, so nearly the same systems)
Edit - plus D2 goes on sale for $12-15 pretty often
@Dm9982 You said that Diablo 3 is bad, right? What is the best Dragon Ball fighting game available on Xbox?
@Banjo- D3 isn’t bad per se, but it’s just not as good as D2 or 4. 4 is what D3 shoulda been.
Dragonball FightersZ is what I would recommend for DB fighting. But if you like open world rpgs with a combat similar to fighting style, Kakarot and Xenoverse are also good. Xeno 1 is super cheap on sale usually if you just wanna test the waters.
Edit - Also Monster Hunter is a great series for relatively easy control (depending on weapon choice) and highly rewarding. Second only to D2 in the rewarding aspect. World and Rise are a bit easier to pick up. But Generations on Switch is the best in the series.
@Dm9982 I have been playing Monster Hunter since Tri (Wii)! I like World a lot and it performs great on Series X. What Xbox do you have?
I'm playing the SFVI demo. It's faster than I expected! But it's fluid, looks great and plays well so far although it only has two similar fighters. The mechanics seem more balanced than in other entries. I did the tutorial, some versus and one kind of special battle, all that it's included. I will play the older games a bit more and then I'll get VI, for sure.
@Banjo- playing since Tri as well (I tried Freedom Unite on PSP, but couldn’t get into back then)
I have a Series X as well. I tried to get into XB1 but it just didn’t perform as well as my ps4 at the time. Traded and was gonna get a Scorpio but decided to wait for SX, ended up getting both an S and X for Xmas (didn’t think the SO was going to be able to secure an X, lol) 2020. So glad to have the X, makes all my XB1 games run so much smoother. Especially FO4
@Dm9982 Yep, backwards compatibility is my favourite feature and many games perform better, even games not specifically updated for Series S|X. You made a wise decision waiting for Series X. My first Xbox was Xbox One, then I upgraded to Xbox One X and then Series X 😂. I also have launch PS4 (Jet Black/Jet Engine Edition) and all Nintendo consoles since SNES except Virtual Boy that wasn't released here.
@Banjo- Nice! Same here on the Nintendo systems, though I did have a Virtual Boy for bout 10 days. Had Tennis and Wario, both gave me headaches / made me dizzy so my dad returned it lol. My first xbox was the original fatty. Got it specifically for Fable and Knights of the Old Republic, great games! But I wasn’t a serious xbox fan until 360 and games like Dead Rising and Crackdown, plus the backwards compatibility with OG Xbox games. Fable 2,3 and Fallout 3/NV furthered my love for it.
Oh and my Switch FC is SW-5558-6500-8995
As long as this means devs not releasing broke, bug ridden games I'm ok with it. Stop rushing incomplete games to market only to annoy your fanbase.
@Kaloudz Thank you buddy, yes i agree. It’s like in sports if your team wins the championship every single year, you are going to be a annoying fan and if you just happen to live in the area and are a fan but take winning with grace and support your team and other teams with respect, you are a rare gem that everyone will find it hard not to respect. But the average Sony fan we are talking about in my heart of hearts like’s the fact they sell more console than they do the console itself. Xbox fan’s take a beating from both the internet trolls and Microsoft the company’s owner all on the same chin and yet we stand tall and love the console and ecosystem. We aren’t given much love online, we aren’t give much love sometimes as i said from MS themselves and we show that we are in my opinion one of the most passionate fan bases of a console maybe in history or tied with Sega. Xbox is a winner for me cause every time i turn it on i enjoy it, i enjoy the friends i made with it, i enjoy this community page of smart passionate gamers, i enjoy the controller and mostly Ui. I can’t say all that for my PS5, which for the record i like very much and have respect for the work Sony does. Ok soap box rant over but in closing i believe us fans have things to look forward to, things to cheer about, and things to politely, keyword politely defend online as AAA market leading games. Oh and did I mention they come day one to GP!! Hahaha
@Fenbops "Play" is such a strong word.... What I can say is it's a fitting sequel to The Spirits Within?
I haven't had time to get farther into it but I tried to start it and the whole thing is just a flipping movie! Sploosh warned me but, dang it's seriously nothing but movie that goes on and on.. I think it's just a case of "bad slice for demo" plus game with way too much cutscenes from square as usual though, so idk the demo is too useful. People say it does have some play eventually which I haven't got to yet. I wanted to see if it feels like an actual arpg or just an action game but instead I got a full length feature film. So.... Still can't say 😔
5-6 years are absolutely fine, that was between Oblivion and Skyrim or GTA 4 and 5...but 10 years or more? With these series now stretching to even 13-15 years? That's just insane. Such games better be worth it.
@NEStalgia I fired it up last night, I was very tired so maybe I didn’t get a good first impression but the very start where you’re hitting triangle to fire fireballs at Ifrit I was thinking what is this 😂 it felt so dull. I turned it off and will give the demo a fair shot tonight.
I want to like it, I love that they’ve gone dark fantasy with British accents but from what I’ve seen this is FF: God of War.
This is why I think they should make smaller less demanding games. Then we'll have more games every year. Not talking about 2D or retro style games.
@Kaloudz thanks buddy and the heat is just been turned on in years 2024-2026 it’s only going to get hotter and then the Xbox in some ways won the gen, by won i don’t mean outsold PS. I mean won the gen in the fact they fixed their brand from the last gen, gained market share back, and go into a new gen with momentum, trust and more gamers that will look at them earlier in the generation and maybe decide GamePass is the place they prefer to be. Maybe they fall in love with the ecosystem more than they thought and that’s the kind of heat Sony fan’s didn’t want to admit could happen. Sure PS will win with sales. We won’t hear the end of that angle and story. But we as big Xbox fan’s will know Xbox did what they needed to do to have a successful generation. The future is bright but as i said lot’s of work left to be done and I wouldn’t mind seeing an even more aggressive Microsoft in the coming years. Put the pedal to the floor with the plan you have in place and strengthen your strengths to grow a leap over PS in area’s they aren’t as strong in, that is what gives a Xbox it’s advantage. I appreciate your support on my post’s, as they are just idea’s, passion and loyalty to a console i have always had fun with and happy to own. I don’t always get it right, but i try to be respectful to the big 3, i own them all and find they all bring me joy in their own intended ways. 😊
@Fenbops Yeah that's been my impression from the start from everything they showed up to the demo, that it's a God of War clone with a Game of Thones theme. Heck the director even talked about the GoW inspiration, heavily. I'll give him credit, he kind of dismissed the new GoWs and referenced the old GoWs, so at least he has taste, lol. But that still isn't what I want to hear from an FF game.
Was hoping it's not really like that....but I stil don't know because you have to make it through a movie before you're allowed to hit stuff.
@Kaloudz Change is here, and i think Sony get’s away with some ugly stuff that MS would be under a huge microscope for and it would be on the local news and every website online. When Sony got involved with the ABK deal, they looked bad and weak, it was smart for them to back down and quit talking for a few months. Press O + X to put foot in mouth was the game Jim Ryan was playing.
@Kaloudz Thanks buddy and same here. It's absolutely true that if Starfield and Fable were PS exclusives they would be boasting about them but I guess now the only title they can use as being "superior" and "game of the year" is Spider-Man's follow-up while downplaying Starfield and Fable. Some of these t... fans are more obvious on PS than on PX, though 🤣.
More studios more games and to fill in gaps but at the same time it's why small games count too.
I was fine with Song of the Deep (as big as Spyro that team was making that which was I think less than 10 people maybe less than 20), I'm fine with Pentiment and Bayonetta Origins and others fitting in between the big releases so they studios still get something out if it doesn't hurt with less people on the teams for the 1 or 2 big games they are working on then understandable why.
I was just saying that I have to now plan for video games like retirement. “Well this game will be out when I am 45…” I suppose I have less gaming gens in me than I thought lol.
What? 4-6 years has been the norm for a long time now.
Now? It has been like that for ten years.
For Zelda games, protracted "college"-length development has been the norm for about twenty.
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