Many of you have probably been following Xbox's ongoing Activision Blizzard negotiations, with Microsoft still trying to secure regulatory approval for its mammoth deal. As was perhaps expected, Sony has become one of Microsoft's biggest obstacles for the deal going ahead, and it looks like the PlayStation owner will soon have to start showing more evidence to back up some of its arguments.
Late last month, Microsoft issued a subpoena to Sony - an order for the Japanese company to provide documents relating to the deal for an FTC court hearing. That FTC court hearing goes ahead this August (although a similar EU showdown just happened), but thanks to a new judge order we know a bit more about what Sony will have to explain ahead of a final decision.
Of six distinct requests Sony made to limit information provided to Microsoft and the FTC, four have been denied and two have been granted. So, basically, Sony will need to fully explain four requests it wanted to restrict information on, but two requests won't have to be fully detailed by the PlayStation owner. Got that? We think we do... just about, anyway.
Some of these six requests aren't particularly relevant to us as onlookers and relate more to the hearing itself, but a few of them are pretty interesting. Sony has managed to wriggle its way out of providing "“performance reviews or evaluations" for its CEO Jim Ryan, while the PlayStation owner has also managed to limit Microsoft's access to information on existing third-party deals - like those with Activision over the Call of Duty franchise.
However, Microsoft is still going to get some of the information it desired. Xbox wanted to see — and showcase to regulators — how Sony had been handling relationships with third-party developers and publishers since 2012. PlayStation has managed to limit that to just three years, with the investigation now only gaining access to information about Sony's third-party deals from 2019 onwards.
Much of Microsoft's other gains relate to the court dealings themselves, and yeah, they aren't particularly interesting truth be told. Feel free to look over the full judge order anyway, especially if you're suffering from insomnia as of late...
As far as we know and can figure out, this US FTC court hearing is still scheduled for August 2nd, where Microsoft and Sony will go head-to-head to try and figure out the whole Activision Blizzard deal. For now, we simply have more information on what can and will be discussed there by the Xbox and PlayStation owners.
Are you keeping up with all of this ActiBlizz shenanigans? Let us know your thoughts on these findings down below!
[source ftc.gov]
Comments 74
I cant wait for the document leaks!
Information Sony will have to hand over:
The first one is the most interesting one for most of us, but the combination of all of these might be juicy enough to trigger anti-trust investigations on Sony itself, if it's found they in any way utilized their market leader status to bully anyone into a deal.
Oh boy cant wait to read some of the leaks from these documents
@Tharsman lol i was thinking the same l
Though I think many of us are tired of the Activision Blizzard deal, I am curious if Sony will reach a deal with Microsoft before the August 2nd date. I’m also curious what information will come out if they don’t reach an agreement and Sony is forced to supply the information granted.
While the juiciest details haven't come out, due to the situation with, for example, Final Fantasy, they might have got Sony to shoot themselves in the foot.
They asked for too much rope, and Sony did the stupid and gave them just enough.
Even if this deal doesn’t go through (I still think it will), these documents are going to be an absolute goldmine for Microsoft to look through. I can’t wait to see some of the juicy goings on behind closed doors Sony wanted to hide away.
@Tharsman yea shame it only goes back to 2019; but a good chunk of Square Enix should get covered.
Good to see Xbox actually ask for this and not sit there like idiots.
@KaijuKaiser maybe Xbox wouldn’t have to make these acquisitions if Sony didn’t pay to stop Xbox users enjoying these games?
I actually want Xbox to purchase Square Enix just to keep all their games multiplatform.
@K1LLEGAL 2019 still means every future deal that has already been signed, a lot of information Xbox likely even didn't know was going to be announced. Even if things don't leak, this will give a huge insight to Xbox about how Sony plays ball, and give them ideas on how to counter going forward.
Something like Street Fighter 5 won't be on there, but pretty much all the discussions about the latest Final Fantasy will be, laying bare how much REALLY is about the 'super fast SSD' in the PS5.
If the chilling effect clause is real, and it's seen that games like Disgaea 7 and Final Fantasy 16 aren't coming to XBOX due to it, instead of the supposed SSD speed...
Sony will lose BIG.
@Tharsman that’s true - i’m thinking backwards but this will be revealing those potentially going forward. Just hope some of the Final Fantasy stuff is included. Purely out of interest.
@KaijuKaiser If Sony bought Square Enix and made every SE game PS5 exclusive, you would not see me complain, well, unless they then shut down all development on anything that isn't FF or DQ.
When an entity buys another company, they take on the responsibilities and risks.
When they pay for an exclusive, they are just throwing money at someone to hurt competitors, at no risk to yourself.
@Kaloudz yes, they originally wanted 3rd party deal information all the way to 2012, but the judge stated that 4 years should be enough to make any point that would be relevant to the case.
MS also wanted information on all executive performance reviews, not sure why (perhaps in case those were tied to incentivizing those third party deals to happen) but that also was rejected by the judge.
@KaijuKaiser you, for your attempt at equalizing acquisitions to moneyhating!
@KaijuKaiser no deletes, my friend, just extra words added at the end, because I figured you would not understand the point otherwise. Anyways, engagement with you wont be productive, so ignore/block/andmoveon.
@Clankylad my assumption is that if Microsoft find something contradictory to what Sony have been arguing against all along, they can then present it in their case to regulatory bodies, in that instance it would be made public.
@Tharsman
Which is the big point Microsoft is trying to make...
Microsoft: Buy a company to improve their portfolio, make more money and get their name out. Yes, they get right to exclusivity, but it's not a done deal. They let people play Mojang's games, they're honoring deals made by Bethesda... but apparently, they're the boogeymen now who won't honor deals in place for CoD.
Sony: SOMETHING is making even games as low-tech as Disgaea 6 and 7 and Octopath 2 skip XBOX entirely, and Nintendo are friends with Microsoft. So, someone else must be changing the rules on how exclusivity works, and the CoD 'golden handshake' that came out recently shows what Sony is willing to do.
Sony are willing to push to hide most of the internal information, and definitely not reveal material that covers FF7 Remake and Street Fighter 5. Which means that while this is risky, something about what they were doing way back in 2012 is even worse.
@Kaloudz The request, as far as I understand it, is about any and all third party deals. Not just exclusivity deals, marketing deals too.
@KaijuKaiser If Microsoft can't compete with Sony, then what is all the fuss about regarding the actiblizz deal? I mean you can't be crying about how Sony is going to get put out of business while claiming the company that is going to put them out of business can't even compete with them. Make up your mind, which is it?
@ValentineMeikin Disgaea, I think, is of their own accord. NIS has only ever put, I think, 3 titles on XBox platforms, and they were not actually made by NIS:
I dont think they have any interest in developing for the Xbox. Hopefully Phil can convince them to do so in one of his infamous Japan business trips.
@Kaloudz Sony fought to stop this happening, that alone speaks volumes. There’s gonna be some juicy details.
Would have loved to see those performance reviews 🤣
@JayJ I remember when Phil Spender was going on about playstation & Nintendo not being competition for Xbox completely changed his tune now though 😂
@Would_you_kindly Okay? So are you just trying to troll the comments right now? Sad!
@Tharsman Can't wait to find out how long the exclusivity is for FF7 Remake.
@KaijuKaiser So Microsoft can't compete yet they are a credible threat to monopolize the industry? Once again, you need to make up your mind.
As for history, Sony bought their way into the industry back in the 90's, so they aren't ones to cry foul at anything.
@Kaloudz they’ll use anything they find to justify the acquisition to the regulators. ‘Hey look, Sony have been arguing this, but here’s a document to show how much Sony paid to keep a game off our service’ That sort of thing may happen. Basically anything that strengthens their case and I’m guessing they’re going to find what they want.
@Tharsman They've ported Disgaea 4, 5 and 6, along with most of their back catalogue, to PC, PS4/PS5 and Switch, while XBOX hasn't got a look in. I can name several other companies who seem to think 'multi-platform' means Switch, Playstation and PC and it's a noticeable minority.
@KaijuKaiser tiny examples like Final Fantasy? Also Xbox is offering up COD as multiplatform…. Playstation is not offering up Final Fantasy.
Defending Playstation in the exclusive games department is a joke in my opinion.
@Kaloudz thanks for the read. Interesting that Xbox didn’t push past the Jan 2019 date. They must be confident that holds enough info they require.
@ValentineMeikin not disagreeing with most of what you said but I noticed you mention Octopath 2 as an example. The first one has still never released on PlayStation so surely SOMETHING is keeping it from releasing on there too going by the common perception.
@KaijuKaiser "and nobody buys jrpgs on Xbox."
Oh piss off with that. It's an old and untrue stereotype.
@KaijuKaiser Let me tell you about a 'little' game named Project Diva. It's a widget series and a rhythm game in a market DDR and the ... Hero series have saturated. SEGA released one of the games in the West as a test.
They've had universally good sales since, on any platform they release on.
Another game, Super Robot Wars 30. Released for the first time in the West in 2022. Also had brilliant sales figures.
I'd love to see the sales figures for Dragon Quest XI S on XBOX or Dragon Quest Builders. Might be interesting.
I doubt there will be much in the documents that Microsoft weren't already aware of as I'm sure they will be perfectly aware of the deals that Sony have in place, and vice versa. Obtaining access to the documents will mostly be about being able to use them as evidence to prove their case.
@KaijuKaiser Are you seriously going to pretend like Sony isn't known for high profile exclusive content? That is literally what they have built their brand around.
strap yourselves in boys were in for a bumpy ride
@Kaloudz Just read it. I also did a passing read of the judge document last night.
An interesting thing I gathered from the judge document is that at least one point, the custodian bit (getting documents from the two Japanese executives), that had Sony been more willing to negotiate and do a good faith effort to work the request with Microsoft, they could had settled for only one of the executives, but since they didn't do any good faith efforts, the request for both being removed would be denied (approved in Microsoft's favor.)
I think that bit is very important, because it gives us a look at the mindset of the judge and how much he seems to value good faith cooperation, and makes it clear he is not exactly happy with Sony's simple obstructionist approach at any of this.
Most of how Sony failed was that they failed to provide a damn good reason that it's not important to the case. Oh, they proved the SCOPE of what Microsoft wanted to know was excessive, in their eyes, but outside of that, Microsoft got practically everything they wanted.
@KaijuKaiser Well they usually had exclusive contracts with them, heck exclusive contracts is something Sony is still notorious for.
@KaijuKaiser Hey, own up to that blanket statement about all Xbox users not buying JRPGs dude. Don't ignore it.
@KaijuKaiser
is not the same as a handful of one year exclusive deals. Look into Microsoft’s history. They make Sony look like saints in comparison
Sony does not do one year exclusive deals, at leasts where Xbox is concerned. FF7R, FF16 and seemingly SH Remake proves the fallacy or willful/convenient ignorance in your statement.
And Sony’s history is not exactly holier than thou, they are just as ruthless in the dark arts of game related deals. So no, they're most definitely not saints and good company to Microsoft👍.
@Tharsman As I said on the other post the likelihood is WE likely won't see much of that at all, it will rightly be redacted. But there should still be some juicy details.
@KaijuKaiser
Sony spent four billion on Bungie and they stayed third party
For Now yes they are staying multiplatform. But what exactly makes you think that once Destiny 2 has been wrapped up Sony will still let them develop future new IP's for Xbox , PC would be expected, sure.
And most folks would accept that to be the case, since ultimately Sony are Bungie’s custodians.
Who knew the FTC would one day bring classic E3 fights back?
@Kaloudz "after having rode the FTC like a small pony"
I see what you did there....
@ValentineMeikin The only thing with FF7 though is that that original deal was stated to be 1 year. It was renewed AFTER 2020. I'm not sure if that would be excluded due to the original deal being from prior, or included because the renewals are contracts signed during this time.
OTOH I can't imagine what they were during during the PS4 years that they're so desperate to hide. None of that really should be relevant, and, with ABK at MS's table and Bethesda under their feet, they already know everything they need to know about that era of deal making, it's the current stuff outside ABK that they don't know about and will find out anyway, so that's strange.
@Kevw2006 Microsoft had access to ABK (CoD) and Bethesda deals (and attempted deals if the starfield one was true for example), but not the Squeenix/FF/DQ/ type stuff, not the Rockstar GTAV stuff, the Hogwarts special mission stuff, etc. This still will be a lot of new key information to have in writing.
@Kaloudz Pretty much exactly that. Microsoft are likely highly suspicious of how much clout Sony has over the merger, and want to prove that some under-the-table deals haven't been made, and/or Jimmy boy hasn't been poisoning the chalice.
And the amount of things Sony claimed 'We can't find easily' or 'It's in Japanese'... Oh, that shows they want to keep as much as possible unknown.
@NEStalgia If they reveal that the reason it's not come to Microsoft is that they completely 'reset the clock', and are planning to reset it again when Episode 2 comes out, until Microsoft might see the first episode.. sometime in 2030...
Well, that will piss off a lot of people who are supporting Sony as being above reproach.
@themightyant We were not supposed to be seeing any of the documents that got revealed during the Epic vs Apple case either, yet that case unveiled documents from Sony and other parties that were not even involved in the lawsuit.
Things like this have a habit of leaking. It's not a certainty, but it sure is a possibility.
@Tharsman I would have like the probe to go back further, too. MS asked to go back as far as 2012, reportedly. This seems a bit shallow, though it should uncover anti-competitive practices. Nioh, Nier: Automata, No Man's Sky, and many titles may have their contract specifics detailed.
At one point MS mentioned Bloodborne among the other paid to be exclusive titles. Intimating that it would have been multi-plat without intervention. Some clarity on that one would be appreciated.
@NEStalgia I wasn't meaning that they would have known the finer details of any deals, or had access to the documentation previously. But I am sure they would be somewhat aware of the deals and arrangements that Sony have in place so I'm sure there won't be too many surprises for them in there. Curiously, even Sony didn't seem to be arguing too much about what Microsoft were requesting about them other than how far back they were looking for. Most of their other objections were related to how much of a "burden" it would be to compile the information and not what was actually being asked for.
@Kaloudz I read it, interesting information.
With the amount of money and work Microsoft has put into this they could have released two AAA games. Game Pass subscribers are paying the costs of lawyers before they even spend a penny on buying Activision.
@Kaloudz sorry pal I was out running 😅 I’ll check out your link when I get time.
So enjoying how Nintendo are just sitting back chilling with the Switch and BOTW2 and Mario Movie, being all self independent etc.
And also get some sort of ten year deal out of it just for a laugh 😆
Sony are all 'This isn't relevant', 'You already have that' or It would take too long to compile'...
The infamous 10 year contract, if we get material in this release showing Jim and his lawyer trying to push for 'the same deal as [Activision] gave us' and saying 'We don't want parity, we want the old deal'...
Well, that'll shoot him in the foot about the unsigned contract.
If there are mentions of paying for the PS4/PS5/Switch exclusivity model, I see that model getting binned, as the companies whose contracts those clauses were in negotiate a new one... with Microsoft and Nintendo.
I'm hoping those internal emails gets leaked 😛 There will be books written over this deal when they finally sort through the ashes
@Kaloudz what’s that? 🤣 just had a look through your link. Great summary of the rulings. I’m just sad that they didn’t grant the full time period dating back to 2012 of documents Sony need to hand over but there should still be some juicy stuff from 2019.
I bet Sony suddenly thinks they 10 year offer is rather enticing…. Well done Microsoft and thank you FTC for approving these subpoenas, I expect lots of dirty juicy info on Sony and it’s ‘deals’, it could very well lead to anti trust investigations in Sony.
I could easily see the judge and FTC look over the 2019-2023 documents and tell Sony that they've come to a preliminary decision...
"Microsoft's deal goes through, and excuse me, but we want to talk about your business practices for the last decade."
Funny reading the Push Square comments about this. It’s like what Sony does with exclusivity is no big deal. If that’s so, why are they doing it? Give me a break. Can’t wait for Sony to pony up this info and get egg on their face with all the crying they’ve been doing over the Activision deal.
@Savage_Joe Yeap, they have not made this 10 year deal part of their reviews other than an acceptance to approve it. If Sony doesn’t sign it gets nothing. Sonys entire strategy has spectacularly backfired on them and now they will be forced to accept the deal, and they will never get exclusive deals on COD again. If the buyout is approved.
@S1ayeR74 not only is their strategy potentially going to backfire but they’ve got to show Microsoft their business dealings for the last 4 years 🤣 I’ve said multiple times Sony had to be careful they could come away from this worse. We will see.
I’d be lying if I said I’m wasn’t interested. I just need to go get some popcorn.
@Fenbops I do find it amazing that Sony's so bent on retaining CoD dominance that they're willing to expose themselves to regulatory scrutiny on their licensing contracts that we've long suspected are sketchy at best for for a slim chance of retaining CoD dominance. I'm not sure that's in any way a sensible strategy but, yeah, ok, that is something they do now.
@ValentineMeikin Yeah, I could see that. I could also see Sony caving on consessions on their video game licensing business out of fear they might look at their music business which is an even danker can of worms.
@Kaldouz @Sebatrox Can't imagine China's an issue, in that neither brand really does much business in their country overall, a major (read: Direct Party connection) company is a major ABK investor that stands to get a large payout from it (Tencent), and Sony is Japanese which in China is a naughty word. Yeah, they don't love the US either, but at the end of the day we're their biggest customer and their party affiliates get richer from it..... politics gonna politik.
@Kevw2006 "60,000 companies" involved.... that alone is eye raising because I don't think anyone could compile a list of 60,000 companies involved in games licensing deals. Their objections were.....weird. My favorite excuse still remains the "it's in Japanese" excuse. Because English translators are sooooooooooo difficult to find? Pretty sure Shaun Layden would do it for free just for the lulz of digging Jims hole deeper.....
@NEStalgia that one made me laugh too. ‘It’s in Japanese’. They may as well as said ‘we’re a Californian business now and can’t be bothered translating its too much effort, ps we don’t really want to’ 😂
@Kaloudz I’ve heard of Strava but no idea that’s what it was. When it comes to running I don’t mind flying solo, less people see me suffer 😜 I did run with friends last week though, it was a nice change.
Disable Javascript and Cookies for Bloomberg. That should help.
@NEStalgia I must admit I only glossed down the document and missed the part about 60,000 companies first time. Someone is going to be really busy at SIE!
@Tharsman not quite true. There were MANY documents in Epic v Apple that were released to the public (I have over 2GB from that case alone) but there’s plenty that was redacted, especially final numbers.
You are right that some things that weren’t meant to be public domain were leaked, and that will likely be the same, but it will be the minority. Still there will be some juicy details no doubt!
@Kaloudz At least I only misspelled the tag instead of blocking you... Karma, ya know...
If you watched the video from 2000 of Jim trying to tell Japan that they're important to PS that looked like a hostage video and was painful to watch, you would not need to ask that question 😆
Now, Shaun, they guy that you used to see on E3 stage shows that spent a year liking posts on Facebook that were negative toward Jim after Jim squeezed him out of the company, he's perfectly fluent and used to be the right hand of the former Sony Corp President at Tokyo HQ during the golden age....... Wonder what bonehead decided to drop him?
Reuters and Associated Press are news feeds used by other press. They're very reliable. Not always correct but reliable in terms of sources, as a primary source, themselves.
@themightyant and that is my point. I am not expecting everything to leak, but we will likely get some leaks.
Things that get used in legal argument during the trial are hard to keep under wraps.
@Moonglow if they aren't competing then what's with the constant 'great for competition' slogan they're peddling 😂
Sony 100% just F'd themselves over on this. They could've left well enough alone and just took the 10 year deal microsoft was offering, but they got greedy, and now we're all gonna know soon enough what goes on behind closed doors at Sony, and I guarantee you it ain't gonna be petty
@KaijuKaiser funny you say that cause Microsoft never said anything about making games version exclusives, so why don't you get out of here Sony fanboy
@Moonglow Everything changed when XBoX started showing success pivoting away from the console competition to a seamless wider ecosystem
If Xbox is showing success then why do they need to buy Activision to compete & why are they bringing graphs to illustrate that playstation is ahead of them in the console market if they don't care about console sales 😂
There's a difference between 'successful' and being in the dominant market position.
The FTC and CMA's case is that Microsoft buying ABK would upend the market and place them in an overly dominant market position. allowing them push Sony out of the market. (Yes, Yes, I know what you're going to say, but leave it till I'm done)
What Microsoft is pointing out is that they're nowhere near strong enough to do more than strengthen their portfolio, and pushing anyone out of the market? No, that's not their plan.
Meanwhile, Sony... Oh yes, they're all over pushing people out of the market.
We already know from the leaked Call Of Duty deal that Sony got a much more generous deal out of Activision and that's the deal they're renewing, with a poisoned chalice hidden in the small print that means it cannot be on Game Pass AT ALL with that same deal in place.
Add to that the amount of games that are PC/PS4/PS5/Switch, especially from Japanese developers, helping keep the frankly ridiculous thought that Japanese Games don't sell well on XBOX going...
And you can see that Sony, as discreetly as possible, are trying to tell as many companies as they can to ignore the XBOX Series X, to trumpet about their super-SSD, to claim that only Playstation can do games as good as that...
While also telling the regulators, when Microsoft steps out of line, "Excuse me, but the company I'm trying to force out of the market just bought something I was eyeing up. Please make sure I at least get my standard Call Of Duty deal. OK, Thanks, Bye."
@Tharsman Unless they leak we likely won't see what's in information handed over. Either way it should allow this to move forward.
@Would_you_kindly you realise Xbox is bringing graphs and stuff to these courts because… they pretty much have to? If Xbox just bought ABK and it all went through fine, then there wouldn’t be any graphs. They are responding to the idea Sony would be kicked out the console market should the acquisition go through; which is insane.
Also just because you show signs of success doesn’t mean you would just stop there. So Sony should just do absolutely nothing now that they are number 1?
Sony:
Buy a controlling interest in as many AAA titles as possible, as 'development costs', and get as many games to be Playstation First, Everyone Else Eventually (Maybe), and use your dominant position to cover for the fact.
Microsoft:
Buy companies who wouldn't mind the money, get some major exclusives and control over some major franchises, distribute them to Nintendo (and Sony if they're interested) and keep yourself afloat.
Nintendo:
Keep innovating and finding new use for old technology. (Who would think that investing in the same technology sector as mobile devices would create the most innovative console in history?) Don't slow down, keep moving forward. Yes, you might not be punching in the same weight class as the others, but your systems are doing miracles all the same.
Sony would love if, when the Cloud-based future comes in, you buy a Playstation-branded dongle with a Playstation-branded controller, and Nintendo and Microsoft are forced to move under their umbrella to keep relevant and making money.
Microsoft could be the umbrella Nintendo sit under in the Cloud future, and Sony don't like it.
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