Halo Infinite Dev: Negative Feedback Isn't Falling On Deaf Ears

To late after five years and masses of people working on Halo.
No series x for me on release date.
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Hope they're not bending over backwards too much. Some of these complaining "individuals" are WAY too demanding, and are basically just being whiny Negative Nancy's.

Microsoft don’t listen not even to fact sales and market trends.
Forza Motorsport has been on a downward trend the last few outings. Why make another one.
Forza Horizon has been on an upward trend the last few outings.
It’s obvious over time tastes have changed and the gaming public prefer by a lot the Horizon games.
So develop that type of game and style to help penetrate the market and sales.
No, we big Microsoft, we just make another Forza Motorsport.

They can't really win with a franchise that is such a big brand, they won't make everyone happy as the hype train never makes the station.

@Dezzy70 I wouldn't underestimate the sales power of a pure racing sim. Forza and GT still do well.

Halo Infinite is a day one purchase. It will probably be the only game I buy on launch day cause I'm not rich. I feel a lot better now more then ever.

Sorry but I have been with Xbox since day one. And expected so much more and better from AAA studio on a series x.
I wanted to be blown away like when I first played Halo on the original Xbox, day one.
There was nothing like it visually or game play wise on console at the time.
That looked this gen quality, after 5 years, hundreds working and millions of dollars.
It was a pathetic showing.
And whether we like it or not, console sales, game sales will suffer.
Anyway that showcase was an hour advert for game pass.

@Jaxx420
We shall see, but the market trend and sales show a massive up for Horizon style of game. It even still comes into the top ten in the UK.

@Dezzy70 Perhaps but with Playground Games now working on Fable, Turn 10 focusing on what they do best - the sim side.

They'll either find another suitable developer to pick Horizon back up, or it'll be Playground's next project after Fable.

I am not one of those other people. Being Honest, I like what I saw in the Halo Showcase. Of course it needed more work done to it. But a four month old build that was running on a PC. Thank You community for letting your voice be heard. That makes me even more sure it will be polished on release day!

Spend the first 5 years not listening to fans, and launching broken games. Then attempt to back track on those 5 years with another 5 years of what insiders seem to be claiming is nothing short of managerial disfunction?

Bonnie Ross has run 343i and Halo in to the ground.

I've been with xbox since the original but I never played too much halo. This was never going to be a deal breaker for me but i would have loved if everyone had fallen back in love with the franchise. That being said, the amount of negative feedback is a little ridiculous. Maybe the art style they chose won't allow them to visually show off just how powerful the series x is, but it is not a terrible looking game. It will be polished and if people actually go back and look at it in 4k, it does look quite nice. I think xbox will be just fine come launch day.

@Dezzy70

Did MS say that there will never be a Forza Horizon again? Must have missed that.
There will be another FH, but after FM because they use the same engine and cars, however I hope they will stop with that sharing.

@Dezzy70 only making games if they sell REALLY WELL, and bailing on everything else, is what has caused Xbox to only have 3 franchises to draw from. it's how they got into this mess in the first place. they should of course continue making Forza, but try to improve it.

@Richnj They really seem to be at a point where maybe it's time to pull the plug on Halo altogether, and break 343 up.

@armondo36 The franchise doesn't even need killing off, it just needs a much lower scale. I've been an advocate for Halo being a B grade title for years. Why MS and 343i seem to think that it needs to be a AAA title is beyond me.

Think how much better Sonic Mania is compared to the big budget Sonics that Sega kept pooping out. They just need to find a team with a clear passion and vision for an entry, rather than trying to manufacture the experience.

@Dezzy70 I'm not the type of people that says we need to fire people
but I think the xbox marekting chief needs to be replaced he's not doing a good job since 2 or 3 years he is the one who says gameplay event and then just show trailer he is so uncompetent

@Dezzy70 forza motorsport is more like a close to real driving simulator for hardcores rather than the arcadie from horizon the people prefer horizon but motorsport is for the one who wants accurate physics and stuff and drive those closed circuit like the champions and formula one

Halo Infinite as a game looked great, graphically it did not look great. Graphics matter but the ray tracing patch they promise will probably fix this. Better than Halo 4 multiplayer or Halo 5 story.

@armondo36
They should use the personnel to make a different new IP and forget Forza, we are on number 8 now.
But stick with Horizon that’s is on an upwards trend and gets gamers to buy the console.

@Jaxx420
Should have ditched FM and made another FH, FH is on an upward selling consoles trend. FM is on a downward trend.
Sales show this. I honestly do believe Microsoft don’t want to sell consoles
Especially after the Halo showcase and game pass sales drive for an hour last Thursday.

@Jaxx420
I used to love Xbox in the original and 360 days. Xbox one some good times.
But now they are not exciting me and giving me the games that I enjoy. My Xbox one x was good for 4K multiplat games.
But moving forward and series x, they have shown me nothing to get excited about.
I was hoping Halo at least would have done this on a 12tflop console, 5 years in development and a massive team.
I was expecting to see a world so alive full of effects and life and just visually blow my mind. But not even a whimper for me.
This will be the first time I will not buy an Xbox console on day of release. I’m sad and also angry with what Microsoft have done with Xbox.

@SalmonTag Nice to hear someone being positive.about the studio's abilities to polish the game before launch.

@MAC26 The level of negative feedback is ridiculous indeed and most of it doesn't even come from Halo fans.

@Kohaku Exactly!

@Dezzy70 "I wanted to be blown away like when I first played Halo on the original Xbox, day one. "

I think you summarized what most of the "controversy" is about. I think that's what a lot of people were wanting.

The problem is that's entirely unrealistic. Halo: CE blew us away because it was a a crossroads in both console technology and a transition in game design. It gave us our first taste of an exploration driven 3D open world with vast landscapes before that was really a design genre (even if it wasn't really a 3D open world, just a well designed illusion of one.) It was the first major game to shake up what the early DOOM-clone shooters were doing and put some "weight" and tactics into the play. It was a revolution, not at all because of graphics, the graphics were, in fact, quite dull. It was a revolution because of the transformation of gameplay design from the early days into the next era of realism, and our first taste of a big open outdoor sandbox.

We're not going to be blown away like that again, probably ever, by any game. The technology has caught up considerably, that movie-like is just a baseline expectation now. You can't do realism more real than movie-like short of VR. The gameplay design is 20 years matured that we've moved past simple "computer games" and arcade tropes of the early days long, long ago. So many ideas have been explored now, and haven't been hampered by technical limits for ages.

I think that's the uphill battle Halo: Infinite was going to face. You represent a ton of the old time fans, that I think are disappointed because you expected new Halo to be a revolution that amazes you again. Halo isn't what was amazing. It's what it represents to a certain demographic that "was there" that can't be duplicated.

Worse, our memory has been reset for us by future reiterations of Halo: CE. We don't remember those horrendous X-BOX textures and flat shaded 4 sided polygons. We remember the modern looking textures and models of MCC. It's how we saw them 20 years ago in our heads.

It's the same as people that hate every 3D Mario that isn't Mario 64. The game is woefully dated, horrendously ugly, with terrible camera controls that are headache inducing. But to the audience that "was there" and was wowed by the first big 3D platformer, everything else will always dismally fail to recapture what was special to them about the first time.

This is probably why some companies like Sony just abandon old franchises when sales slump. You can't reinvent the magic, so you just leave it in the past and move on to something new. Otherwise, this happens.

This decade's "wow" seems to have gone to Zelda. Not driven by graphics, but of it's unique approach to an existing genre and scale. The next "wow" from visuals will probably have to come from VR. We've pushed 2D up against the wall of reality itself....it's not going to get much more "wow" in our lifetimes. That era's gone.

I’m still wowed by certain games visually today depending on the hardware.
Forza Horizon 4 on my one x is the best in league and generation for that type of game.
Mario Odessey on Switch probably best in league.
Horizon zero dawn on PS4 best in league.
When you release a next generation console with 12tflop and PR it’s power etc and add Halo and a massive team you expect best in league for a new generation at the point in time. At least something visually and open world wise above RDR2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Mario Odessey and Forza Hoarizon 4. Even Far Cry New Dawn.
But it looked generic and tired. It should have wowed us and the public. So after the show the public were saying did you see Halo Infinite gameplay it was so out of this world and looked so next generation I must get one of those series X. Which in turn would sell more game pass etc.
Instead on various forums and chat with gamer friends, it has fallen flat and not many seem to be in any rush to buy a series X.

A lot of the specific feedback is about things The developer should be able to fix quite quickly:
The global illumination system not showing proper detail when things are in shadow.
The lack of transparency of plasma effects and enemy shields.
The way vegetation reacted to animals and enemies.
The way things popped in after shutting the map screen.

@NEStalgia So much truth, logic and sensibility right there. I'm afraid it's not going to convert the Nancy's, though: they've already made up their mind, and in their eyes, bad is bad, regardless of any actual truth you're offering them.

Few could deny the visuals aren't blowing everyone away, but now I think the only way 343 could tempt the haters back is by showing a demo featuring a large scale battle in a different environment on the ring, filled with numerous NPCs and vehicles clashing on the battlefield, and demonstrating they "get" Halo (assuming such battles are in the game, of course)?

Revealing a bit more about the story might ease things a little, too. But then that always comes with the risk of a backlash, so...

@Ryall
A very good reasoning, you have. A lot of visual improvement can be accomplished without having to rework the entire game. The important thing is that the core experience, the gameplay, seems to be what they got right from the start. That's what will carry Halo, and Halo fans, going forward.

@Dezzy70 The question then is, what did you expect a Halo game to do to wow you in 2020? A graphics revolution? Seeing the whole world mirrored in pixel perfect detail on MC's visor? That's a great CES demo for nVidia, but doesn't do much for a video game. The thrill lasts no longer than the trailer.

Larger than ever landscapes and vistas? This has that. Completely redesigned gameplay? From what, to what? And would it be Halo or a spinoff if it became entirely new play? Maybe explore the Halo universe from the eyes of a foot soldier? But they already did that with ODST. Halo is defined not so much by lore as much as by gameplay. If you change those systems, it stops being what made the series. This moves the open world out of the "illusion" of open and into actual open. That's a big jump! But the problem here is the illusion was done so well in the past, that it doesn't look different when brought from illusion or reality. The structure is entirely different from the map based earlier Halos. Halo is "finally open world!" But Bungee did such a good job making us think that the early games were open, that we look at this and many think "it looks the same."

Some want a graphics showcase. But Halo isn't a graphics showcase. It never really was. It was about unprecedented scale, and more realistic gameplay, not rendering prowess. Other games, even in it's own time looked better than it.....but were confined indoors in corridors and courtyards.

Again, maybe the best way to "wow" people is to stop making Halo. What made it amazing in the past, it can't be amazing at today because what it introduced is now normal. Maybe the best way forward is leave Halo in it's vaunted past legacy, honor it with MCC, cut it loose, and move onto new IP. Then the fans will yell "where's more Halo!?" It's in the past with Jak & Daxter, Billy Hatcher, and Mother. And Good Sonic.

I have only two notes/concerns about Halo: Infinite

1) This game is designed in such a way, that it practically requires Ray Tracing to look good. They were forward-thinking with the design of most models, in such a way that for objects to look good, they need Ray Tracing there, day one. I would never advocate for crunch, but if there was ever a need for it, it is now, because this game can’t be delayed and needs to be there day one. Even lazy ray-tracing implementation would be better than no ray-tracing at all, on day one.

2) The concept of continuously updating the game is one that both, intrigues me and bothers me. As someone with family in areas where the only limited access to internet (either just dialup or cellphones with terrible data-caps as options) downloading content is not an option.

This is something that has been highlighted heavily recently during the pandemic, where many students just can’t get access to remote learning due to no internet access. This is not a rarity; it is extremely common in rural areas.

It's OK if MS wants to stop cranking iterative sequels and just do big story DLC, or "DLC Story Arcs" similar to what Assassins Creed Odyssey did, but they need to provide access to physical versions of these.

The negativity & whining about one gameplay demo is amazing to me. If they didn’t show the game, people complain. They show the game and people complain. 343 can’t win.

@Dezzy70

What does Forza Motorsport & Horizon have to do with a Halo demo?

Oh and both Forza series are top notch, so I don’t get where your hate on FM is coming from. If you don’t like FM or the series, then don’t buy the game.

@KelticDevil
So went through the DF break down and as I thought.
Using old techniques and catering for the Xbox one is holding the game back.

Even with series x power, focusing on 4K is probably holding back ray tracing usage.

This is not what I pay £450 for a next generation console for.

I’m not angry at you people on here you all seem cool. It’s Microsoft and the direction they have taken. I have been with from original Xbox day one. And I just expected a different direction.

I’m forward thinking. I have a one x.
I don’t care about backwards compatibility.
I don’t care about making games that will run on my Xbox one x.
I don’t care about my existing games run better on series x etc.
They have made a beast of a console just move on and focus the AAA studios focus on making amazing new games using all its power the best way possible setting new standards for gameplay, creativity and visual detail and raising the graphical level.
I have played all the other game’s I wanted to on my original Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox one x. They are stretching resources trying to cater for so much and becoming a jack of all trades and master of none and under utilizing the power of the series x.
That’s the truth behind all my moaning, that is what I wanted, maybe I’m selfish but that’s what I wanted Xbox to do and be for next generation from the start.

@Dezzy70 That's the thing. You want a tech demo to showcase what spending money on the newest toy can buy. You're not alone.... But that's really the PC market. And even PC has largely split from that direction since the days of Crysis with the bulk of focus on running on as many configurations as possible and only a niche focused on liquid cooled extreme power.

What would that tech demo really get you? How would it change what the game is? Sure spiderman 1.5 looks better, visually. But it's running at half the frames. Would Halo be better at 30fps? XSeX isn't even close to the monumental leap in hardware required to rocket that far. And development costs of something that would use it would be hard to justify. Game sales would struggle to return the investment.

I think a lot of folks are, ironically, stuck looking backwards and confusing it with forward. The past was about disposable technology and Moore's law, and today's purchase being obsolete yesterday. Some folks seem to enjoy the disposable tech economy of the 90s and early 00s. And the "retail therapy" of being the cool kids with the newest toys for 10 hours. That's done.

The new tech is about streamlining everything, integrating everything, humanizing everything (ironic for an ever less human world) and scaling content to bigger audiences. Thus XCloud. Even for PlayStation, though they hide it behind marketing, the focus isn't about hardware anymore. It's about reducing barriers.

XSeX isn't mind blowing tech. It's already worse than the latest PCs. Console is about value and convenience, not performance.

Halo isn't and never was SeX exclusive. Is the wrong benchmark for graphics showcases to begin with. But even then, even if it's fable or Forza that fills that role, even at its best, it's still a moderate PC at best, and the idea that games are just going to get ever more amazing looking is really a dated idea stuck in the past. There's always improvement, but nothing like the changes in the past.

And setting new standards for gameplay and creativity... Well a Breath of the Wild moment is a rare thing, and isn't at all dependent on power or graphics. It could some from "last gen" tech.... Even the lowly WiiU.

@SalmonTag

Why buy it when you get it with GamePass?

Looks like that months-old build wasn't THAT old, considering the fact 343i could've just said "Don't worry, this looks nothing like the final product".

This is more or less what they were planning to release.

My heart sincerely goes out to the poor people who will crunch like crazy because apparently management is up its own ass and the game (and the contractors) will suffer for it.

The game looks super fun! I'm okay with the visuals personally, but I would appreciate them to fix the pop-ins and possibly increase the detail of the character models. Other than that Im in day 1!!!

Is the game cutting edge graphically? No, but it still looks really good. The gameplay and the environment look awesome, and it looks like overall the best Halo game in years.

@Dezzy70 I don't think that hoping to get something that you would find interesting or enjoyable is selfish, so no problems with that, but in general, I do have an issue with people having completely unrealistic expectations.

I completely agree with everything that @NEStalgia has said on the matter so far. That enormous wow factor is a thing of the past: never more will we see ginormous jumps in tech and/or graphics like with the move from 2D to full 3D or from SD to HD consoles, so like I already mentioned in another thread on here and on NLife, it's all about the details and subtleties from here on out, which is exactly where HDR, dynamic lighting and 2020's version of ray tracing come into play.

But perhaps your perception of "being wowed" is different from ours. Personally, I simply know that I'll never ever be blown away again. I've simmered down to stuff pleasantly surprising and/or impressing me, but never in an "Oh, my God, I'm completely blown away" kinda way.

I own all the Forzas, and although I do obviously see the graphical improvements, and I certainly do enjoy them as well, I don't see the massive improvements that you seem to perceive between one version and the next. I just find that it looks slightly prettier and a bit sharper, that's all. Which is also completely within the ball park of what I expect it to be.

Hence also the reason that I wasn't disappointed, let alone MASSIVELY disturbed (apparently) by how the new Halo game looked. I thought it looked perfectly fine, and it looked like fun to play, so that's all that matters to me personally. Looks can only get you so far, after all...