Topic: General Xbox Series X|S Thread

Just a heads up guys, Star Renegades comes out on gamepass tomorrow for console and it’s meant to be great. It’s a turn based rogue like RPG that has a lovely pixel art style. Check out the reviews it scored highly.

This is why I love gamepass so far, it gives us great smaller indie titles as well as bigger games. Just adds to the value overall.

@Senua interested to hear your take on this as DF came out saying PS5 has the advantage? I don’t like these types of videos tbh where games are examined under a microscope, most people will not tell any difference in a real world setting.

It seems the higher clock speed of the PS5 GPU is making a bit of a mockery of the pure tflop gap between them. There may be something in the lack of maturity in the Xbox dev tools but I doubt we'll ever see the performance gaps that we often did between Pro and X

@Fenbops There’s nothing to say except lot of developers/insiders and even the Digitalfoundry themselves have already told that Xbox has moved to a fully new unfamiliar Gamecore GDK development platform which is almost like 6 months old and some of the features like VRS Tier 2, Mesh Shading, Sampler Feedback, XVA decompression and virtual memory - all these are not even available widely to all developers (same for PC). Whereas PS5 being a console which was scheduled to launch way before, it’s obvious their toolset was more stable, matured and ahead in development cycle. Maybe this is why Cyberpunk 2077 has delayed next gen version till next year when the SDK/APIs will receive more updates. Honestly don’t expect a fair comparison until next holiday and the following years. It all boils down to design decision which Microsoft has made for which they have a superior backcompat layer which developers of Warzone, Rocket League are able to port easier 120fps patch, their backcompat games are also launching faster and they have a more stable and less brick-prone OS. Since Xbox waited for lot of extra features (according to official blog) this is the cost they need to pay as things like that just delays development cycle but only in the short term.

@carlos82 The weirdly higher clock speed is also making a bit of mockery with the hardware issue weird artifacts that lot of ps5 units are suffering from due to low poor yields and something which is forcing Sony to shift to a more expensive 6nm process in a year or two.

@Senua interesting cheers. I know MS were slower getting dev kits out and I believe they were waiting on RDNA2 to be finished before finalising things. I think right now that’s what we’re seeing. Developing for PS5 is easy it’s similar to the PS4 while MS went a different route. I think it’ll pay off in the end but until then Sony may have a slight advantage for now.

And there is still the issue that as long as studios see ps5 as the biggest install base, they'll be focusing on it as the lead, naturally resulting in better results just do to time, cost, and effort defaulting to ps5. Some of the result will then depend on how fast ms can shift a lot of units and/or how shared the effort is with xCloud. Of course ms can afford to money hat to help with those efforts to avoid embarrassments if poor performance in higher profile titles.

@NEStalgia You have to remember that the Series S/X and PC all use DirectX12 Ultimate now and Xbox isn't 'just' the console. Its clear that 'Console' install base isn't the focus for MS at all and not too important. A lot of the same features are transferable between PC and Xbox - VRS, Mesh Shading, DXRaytracing, Sample Feedback Streaming, Direct Storage etc and benefit both PC and Xbox consoles. The only real difference is that the Consoles are 'fixed' spec with Developers expected to optimise the game experience specifically for - where as on PC, the user is free to optimise their experience. If they want a 1080/120 mode, they can adjust the settings to get that. I know some settings maybe 'bespoke' to console - like dynamic resolution scaling, certain elements running at different frame rates or resolutions - as 'part' of the optimisations - but that's still part of the final optimising for specific console hardware at the 'final' stage.

I think we are seeing the fact that devs have not had time with the Series SDK's and DX12 Ultimate. DX12 Ultimate is extremely new and I obviously with circumstances in the world right now, the late arrival of SDK's is a set-back for MS. I wouldn't be surprised if the games we are seeing now are running in a 'Back Compat' type mode with just a few different tweaks to visual settings. AC:Valhalla seems to be visually like an XB1X - just double the frame rate - certainly not running as you may expect on much newer architecture - let alone leveraging a lot of the features advertised with Series X. If you made a 12TF XB1X with a faster Jaguar CPU, I would expect AC:Valhalla to perform very similarly. Also I would expect similar results for the Series S too if it was running in a BC mode.

I would love MS and/or Ubisoft to comment because its clear that its under-performing. It really does seem that the game is running at 2x the speed of an XB1X and therefore it seems like its running in BC with a 60fps frame cap instead of 30fps. It really doesn't seem to be leveraging the new architecture at all - let alone any of the feature set...

I have a question, I’ve got a Sony AG9 55” OLED 4K. It’s HDMI 2, don’t think it has Vsync? It doesn’t have VRR, so if I get a Series X are the games going to be screen tearing in it all the time, like in the Digital Foundry Valhalla gameplay video? Or will it be down to the developers to fix it so it doesn’t?

@S1ayeR74 it will be developer based. I don't have HDR or VRR on my TV and my games look fantastic. Haven't played Valhalla though so it would likely have issues like everyone has been reporting without VRR.

@BAMozzy I think that's overthinking it, and the last paragraph is correct. Valhalla has been in development for quite a few years, since long before the new consoles existed. Any current game has. It is an X1X game with some tweaks for the new machines. So is Yakuza. For that matter so are Miles, Souls, and Horizon FW PS4 games with some tweaks.

But despite that there's still the issue that it's performing slightly better on PS5, while performing fairly awful, really, on both machines and you would think the hardware advantage would go to XSX if only because the design would benefit from X1X being an original target vs. Pro.

I can't remember if you've been on the Push Square conversations, but there's two users there, primarily one, who are devs, that sound pretty high level, although anonymous. The most vocal of the 2 has worked multiplat primarily on the PS side of AAA's, and has worked Sony first party - so there's going to be bias there - and working on the Sony port side of things, the grapevine will also show bias. But in contexts like this, it's a useful bias for information. The things they've been hearing (combined with experience) are basically that the PS5 dev kit is simply easy to use, as in less effort is required to get a particular result or optimization, the hardware and kit are simply automating more things that have to be done with more manual effort for XB. It's not so much that the XB kit can't achieve the same result, but that it takes more effort into it to do. And the other thing that's not bias was that the analysts are telling the AAAs (the big publishers) that PS5 will outsell XB considerably, and as a result they are putting their focus 250% on PS5 in terms of effort and expense. As you say, it depends on the utility of other platforms from MS and how much it crosses over in effort, and what those install bases are. But currently we have a situation where we know PS outsells XB, publishers know that, analysts are confirming that (think Patcher and friends), and the result out of the board room is "XB doesn't matter much to the bottom line, just work on the PS version mostly, and make sure the XB one is ok-ish."

None of that means the PS5 is better hardware, of course. But I'm getting the picture the PS5 is designed to allow "quick & lazy" development efforts to yield an optimal result. And combined with their marketing power and anticipated install numbers the devs know they can hit their biggest market with the least effort. That's no doubt not an accident on Sony's part. MS's hardware has more potential overall, but it requires more effort to take use of, to reach a smaller audience, unless that effort is going to pay off for a huge install base across the platforms of MS. MS's goal then has to be to ensure/demonstrate that the same optimization effort is required for PC, XB, and xCloud all at once. And that they have the install numbers combined to justify it. And to help out with getting these big engines optimized where needed.

The only part that confuses me is I'd still expect the XSX to outperform the PS5 with these early crossover games from the old gen. Even those PS-focused devs expected that, actually....so Ubi's result here is an extraordinarily confusing mess of a game....but don't we expect that from Ubi?

@S1ayeR74 Depends if the game runs like garbage with unstable framerates or if it runs at a reasonable framerate. Valhalla runs like garbage on both platforms. Few people have screens with VRR, 120, etc. - HDMI 2.1 Only last year's absolute top of the line TVs have that stuff. 95% of the gaming public doesn't have one. Probably only 50% will by the end of the gen.

Heck, my monitor doesn't support VRR but does support Freesync which XB supports. But I can't use it because Freesync doesn't go through my HDMI switches, I'd have to connect directly to the screen, and that won't happen since I need audio breakout and need to manage multiple consoles.

I didn't want to make a new thread for this single question, since this thread seems appropriate. So...

Is there a way I can use my USA GamerTag to browse the Japan Marketplace and thus, purchase a Japan Exclusive game? I would just buy a disc, but there doesn't seem to be one for this game, Kunio-Kun World Classics.

Ok, I've done this as an Australian, buying US games not available in Australia.

Sky Force and Hotline Miami collection, both unavailable in Australia.

Unsure about the case of Japan, but if you are able to find a XBox gift card (to redeem it's code) for that region (try Play-Asia). Do not try the redeem page on Microsoft's website.

Next, go to the product page on Microsoft's site, not on XBox.

Click buy, and use your gift card as your method of payment.

I hear this might also work with a Japanese based CC, but have not tested.

Note, the above is different to redeeming a product code that is not on your own region's store, as I've found to be problematic.

Though, through the use of VPN, I've purchased UK and US codes (as an Australian), and redeemed product codes that are available to my own region's store.

Hoping this helps 💜

Cool, that was my worry, but still I hope devs don’t rely on VRR to fix the issues and make the software work properly. Thanks for the replies

Pound for pound in optimised conditions, XBox wins.

But these developers aren't utilising all the tools at their disposal at this time.

Dropping this here:

Edit:

This was in reply to a discount troll, who was largely ignorant of any facts. Not directed to Senua, who I do appreciate being here 🤗

Its clear that BOTH consoles are not being fully utilised yet and both are likely to see updates too. You have to remember that circumstances are completely different to any other launch and for developers too. People are not able to access SDK's (Software Development Kits) and pressured to bring Software to Hardware that they have little/no experience of. MS have changed a LOT with their new DX12 Ultimate which in itself isn't officially released yet and some studio's still haven't got the latest SDK. Both of which present issues for developers and optimising their games for the Series consoles.

There is no way that the difference in clock speed is enough to make up for a large deficit in Shaders (all things being 'equal'). If you 'boost' a much smaller GPU, it won't suddenly perform better than a much larger, already 'fast' GPU with 20% more computational power. Digital Foundry found that a 'faster' RX5700 (36CU's), boosted to match the RX 5700 XT (40CU's) in terms of TFlops, the 5700XT still outperformed the faster 5700. Admittedly, the boost wasn't as significant and the difference in shaders was much closer - but the point is, the 'speed' of Sony's GPU isn't enough to match the sheer difference in size. Its like having two offices of printers - one with 2304 printers each printing 2230 sheets an hour, compared to 3328 printers each printing 1825 sheets an hour - the faster but fewer printers are still only printing a lot less sheets per hour. That's what you have with these two consoles - assuming each is 'equal'. Of course, in reality each shader can do two operations per cycle (like a printer printing 2 simultaneous sheets) - which if you do the maths (2304 x 2 x 2230 & 3328 x 2 x 1825), you will get the TF of both Consoles. Yes the speed may allow a few things to be better, having extra 'cycles' per frame, but in the history of GPU's, the smaller GPU's in the same family do not beat a much larger GPU with significantly higher 'performance' by overclocking. You couldn't for example take an RTX 3070 and overclock to 2230Mhz (if that was possible) and its suddenly going to beat an RTX 3090 at 1825 - forget the VRAM differences, the difference in shaders (Cuda Cores) would still leave the 3070 trailing...

Not all things are equal and never will be - Sony won't be using DX12 Ultimate API for a start and devs have had more experience with Sony's SDK and development suite as its also similar to PS4's development suite. There are differences built into the GPU too and pipeline so we will have to see what happens in the long term with BOTH systems but right now BOTH are not running fully optimised with full features available - BOTH will get updates and improvements, developers will get more used to EACH and get much more out of the Hardware - especially as they start to develop new games with the new hardware as the 'lead' design. Games like AC:V and Dirt 5 were developed for Current Gen, AC:V started development over 3yrs ago...

I have played over 50hrs in AC:Valhalla and yes, its not 'perfect' in terms of performance but I am really enjoying it so far. I expect it to be 'improved' but I wouldn't be surprised if its still better than playing on an XB1X (I haven't tried).