
Stop us if you've heard this one before! Microsoft has once again been alluding to PlayStation's dominance in the market as a reason why regulators shouldn't be worried about Xbox's acquisition of Activision Blizzard.
Speaking at the big European Commission hearing this week, Microsoft president Brad Smith threw around some figures about the difference between Xbox and PlayStation in various regions, and even brought out a pie chart!
Here's a bit of what Smith had to say, courtesy of GamesIndustry.biz:
"Think about the market in Europe. It is a market where Sony has an 80% share. Globally, it is about 70/30. In Japan, it is 96/4. These numbers have been remarkably steady for two decades. Even last year, when there were issues with Sony's supply chain, they came back strong."
Of course, the idea here is to try and convince regulators that the acquisition of Activision Blizzard wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the industry. Smith also pointed out yesterday that Xbox has a much bigger presence on PlayStation than PlayStation has on Xbox - the quotes below are courtesy of Tom Warren on Twitter:
"Microsoft has 58 games already running on PlayStation, Sony only has 2 running on Xbox. We've said that if this acquisition goes through, we're happy to make sure that there's a #59 with Call of Duty and no doubt others."
"Sony has 286 exclusive titles, and Microsoft only has 59 on Xbox. Mostly what you see is a cross-platform strategy for Microsoft even before this deal. Now as we look to the future, we believe the future is even more cross-platform than it has been in the past."
Meanwhile, Activision Blizzard CCO Lulu Cheng Meservey was grabbing some attention of her own with swipes at Sony on Twitter, suggesting the company is "trying to undermine the deal to protect its two-decade dominance in gaming."
In particular, the following tweet racked up a lot of views:
It's all kicking off again, then! Even despite the meeting yesterday, Sony has still refused to sign Microsoft's proposed 10-year deal to keep Call of Duty on PlayStation, but Microsoft's Brad Smith remains a hopeful a deal can be agreed.
"We haven't agreed a deal with Sony, but I hope we will."
"I hope today is a day that will advance our industry and regulation in a responsible way."
What do you make of all this? Let us know down in the comments section below.
[source gamesindustry.biz, via twitter.com]
Comments 119
Sony and Activison relationship is never going to be the same regardless of the outcome of the acquisition
Why are Nintendo never in these charts? I know there not on the same power level as Playstation & Xbox but they are far and away the biggest in the market right now
Oh lol.
Microsoft contradicts itself so many times. Do they care about hardware, or they don't? which one is it?
Why don't they mention Nintendo in the market share? They signed the cod contract with them because they're also being "hurt" by this right? That contract was done last year btw. COD was never big on Nintendo, and now cod will be handicapped because it needs to go to the switch?
Microsoft has 23 studios, x20 more money than Sony's, but lets blame evil Sony for not letting us compete instead of our bad management, right?
Lets mask Sony as a baby. Sony doesn't lose anything by trying. If the deal goes though, they still get the 10 year deal, if they win, MS loses money and their energy and they keep the income of COD. People are so short sighted and don't see it as a tactic. They rather call them "babies". Everyone is here to make money.
MS is desperate. First it was about the metaverse and KING lmao. They want to focus on hardware so they can look "weak" and it's pathetic. They're bringing old contracts and bribing people.
I like how some of the fans say xbox is weak, but then they fantasize about MS getting Sega, Capcom, Ubisoft etc.
Yes, we know Jim wants money. It's why it's fighting for it. They don't have a OS monopoly (which is why Google might be there).
Appear strong when you're weak, appear weak when you're strong. That's the motto of this debate.
What I'm finding about this, is that Sony is proud and MS does not know how to debate in gaming.
And I thought Nintendo and Sony weren't competition. Which one is it?
Idk what will happen, some people from both sides think they know, which is funny, but we really don't know. All I know this is the last acquisition for MS for a long long time, which I hope it goes through because ABK sucks anyways.
@Decoy_Snake Because then the numbers would not look as stark, but obviously Microsoft count Nintendo as the deal shows. Really its all about spinning numbers to back up your case. All companies do it.
With those percentages that have been highlighted about the dominance of Sony, has Lulu considered how much money that’s in the Acti/Blizzard bank accounts is because of how many games they have sold on Sony Consoles? Whatever happens with this, she is looking like an absolute idiot.
@Decoy_Snake Because Nintendo accepted Microsoft's agreement and Sony didn't. Microsoft is showing the fact that Sony wants to keep their dominance and want Xbox to lag behind in third-party support, games and market share. That's why Sony was moneyhatting ZeniMax and ABK before the acquisitions, to get their games earlier than Xbox and with exclusive content. And now they're still doing it with Square Enix, Warner and Konami.
I don't see this as a bad strategy, though. Sony's whole argument against the deal is basically that it will lead to Microsoft dominance over all...our new Xbox Overlords, if you will. However, to highlight that Microsoft has really been the UNDERDOG as far as market share goes, going on 2 decades now, it shows that they are in no position to take over anything. Sony's brand is much bigger and stronger than Microsoft's is. That is a valid point to share against Sony's own arguments. Also, Sony continuing to refuse an the CoD offer from Microsoft to me just shows them as being petty and trying to force their own arguments over a solution presented by Microsoft/Activision. One party looks like they are trying to come to terms with everyone, the other just looks churlish, stubborn, and like they are trying to force their viewpoint to stay in place against evidence to the contrary.
@GodofCapcom does COD need to go to the Switch? It needs to be on Nintendo but that doesn’t necessarily mean the Switch…
@K1LLEGAL
Well, I bet the switch 2 won't be that powerful either way.
but who am I kidding, cod is a reskinned annual game. It's not pushing anything.
@GodofCapcom I wouldn't say CoD would be handicapped on the Switch at all. CoD ran fine on both the Wii and Wii U. The problem was the strained relationship between Actiblizzard/Nintendo. And while Nintendo systems may not be the biggest market for CoD games, there was obviously a big enough market and enough sales for them to put multiple games on previous Nintendo hardware, even though it was weaker than other hardware on the market at the time.
How can anyone think that Sony is more confident when they rely on buying exclusivity from ZeniMax and ABK before the acquisitions and now Square Enix, Warner and Konami, and they are the only one not accepting any parity agreement for games that they don't own? I mean, if Sony was confident, wouldn't they focus on their PS Studios games and services?
@Kaloudz I believe the charts 70/30 split means in general between Sony/Microsoft. Sure, they maybe selling 2:1 at the moment, but the bigger overall picture shows one of Sony market dominance over Microsoft (per the chart). And it would take quite a while of selling at the 2:1 system difference to change that overall picture.
@Kaloudz I did the maths for you 😉. If we consider consoles sold as market share, Sony has sold 30m PS5 and Microsoft has sold 20m Series X|S so, if we exclude Nintendo, the worldwide market share this generation is:
60% PS5
40% Series X|S
Last generation, 117m PS4 and 51m Xbox One means:
70% PS4
30% Xbox One
@Kaloudz I don't know if they are combining the PS4 and PS5 data because PS4 games are still being sold and it wouldn't surprise me if there are more PS4 than PS5 games sold currently. I don't know how they did the maths but they didn't use the current-gen console numbers exclusively.
@Kaloudz I'm happy to help if it's as easy as this LOL. And yes, that Lulu's tweet...
@Sebatrox The tweet is awesome because it shows Sony playing the victim after rejecting the offer.
Lulu has been pretty entertaining throughout and managed to bring a little laughter to a boring topic
Sony sell more consoles simply because they have better games.
I used to be a huge Xbox fan and currently own both consoles.
My Xbox has barely been touched due to there not being anything that interests me.
Where my PlayStation has amazing exclusives and all the third party stuff too that gets released on Xbox.
Xbox need to make good exclusives.
Honestly doesn't matter if Microsoft get ABK or not tbh. (They will of course) but unfortunately their track record isn't great and usually tend to ruin franchises. I would put money on alot of internal staff moving on eventually and COD becoming a former shadow of itself. How many developers and games have actually succeeded under their rein? Not a huge amount unfortunately. Realistically, they need to evaluate their departments and staff and start look at old IP's to ressurect. Damage was done from the One generation and they have really struggled to find some form again.
You have to laugh at this 80/20 thing.
Microsoft showing how crap they have run the Xbox business for the last 10 years or so.
They had a chance and did well at Xbox360 era and a better percentage and should have grown from there to be one of the biggest by now.
Shows what a crap job they did and are still doing really.
They will be third for life, unless they buy their way in, and that is what they are trying to do.
I’m not saying it is right or wrong by the way
I actually don’t care now.
@EquiinoxGII I don't think that Sony's games are any better, that is a subjective topic but I partly agree with you. Not fully because there is The Coalition, Playground, Turn 10, Double Fine, Obsidian, Tango, Undead Labs (I mention Undead Labs because of how they have improved State of Decay 2 and has become excellent) and even Bethesda seems to be in better form and ready to launch their new games without so many glitches. So there are some Xbox Game Studios that are doing great.
On the other hand, Rare is not making anything with their awesome IPs, 343 Industries needed external help to make Halo Infinite good after many years of development and money and The Initiative is a newborn zombi that has Crystal Dynamics making their first game...
I think that the real problem is that Phil Spencer gives too much freedom to the studios and some are becoming lazy but also that some of them have bad internal management and lack organisation, team work and talented and inspired workers. I hope that those get fixed and that some people are fired and hired. They cost millions yearly and they are supposed to make good games.
Decoy_Snake wrote:
Because it doesn't support their argument. Both sides are busy spinning away and cherry picking data, it's BS coming from all sides.
Not being a fanboy, but it's still funny how they are using how horribly they are doing and have run their video game division for all these years to try to get their massive acquisition approved. There should be no sympathy for the fact that PlayStation as a whole has been run so much better than Xbox, and that is why the market share and amount of exclusives is so much better. Not that Xbox is a victim or anything.
@Dezzy70 PS3 was behind Xbox 360 until the cheap PS3 revisions sold when the generation had already ended and Xbox 360 sold more games. Sony's astonishing dominance started with PS4 and not because of their exclusives. You can read statements from Sony saying that they were surprised with the sales considering that PS4 had no new games but ports and remasters. PS4 had poor competition: Wii U was a badly-marketed and weak home console for being eight-gen and Xbox One was more expensive and bundled with Kinect. Actually, Xbox One had decent early exclusives such as Killer Instinct 3 and Sunset Overdrive. PS4 had nothing.
Most people bought PS4 because it was cheaper than Xbox One, because Wii U was late and weak and because it was the default console last generation to play Call of Duty, GTA and FIFA/MADDEN, the best-selling games.
@Moonglow
I totally agree with you of course Sony did that.
But the thing is they still are look at Hogwarts adverts and suicide squad coming up, all Sony advertising rights and I also think the new Star Wars game.
But Xbox used to that in the 360 era as well.
My point Microsoft should have continued with the great work they did in the 360 era, they had COD and FIFA advertising rights then as well.
My main point. Microsoft did this to Xbox and so dropped the ball towards the end of the 360 era.
They could have been just as big as PlayStation by now but had to balls it up with corporate this and that.
It is all Microsoft’s fault for where they are now not Sonys, actually Sony just copied the 360 strategy and took it forward and grew it.
Whilst Microsoft took totally the wrong direction.
@Banjo-
I totally agree with you of course Sony did that.
But the thing is they still are look at Hogwarts adverts and suicide squad coming up, all Sony advertising rights and I also think the new Star Wars game.
But Xbox used to that in the 360 era as well.
My point Microsoft should have continued with the great work they did in the 360 era, they had COD and FIFA advertising rights then as well.
My main point. Microsoft did this to Xbox and so dropped the ball towards the end of the 360 era.
They could have been just as big as PlayStation by now but had to balls it up with corporate this and that.
It is all Microsoft’s fault for where they are now not Sonys, actually Sony just copied the 360 strategy and took it forward and grew it.
Whilst Microsoft took totally the wrong direction.
Removed - flaming/arguing
@Dezzy70 Since they started Game Pass, Microsoft's strategy is to have a stronger portfolio of studios to nurture it and to become a multiplatform ecosystem with Play Anywhere and Cloud. It's probably not the quickest way to do it, it's quicker to buy exclusive rights of third-party games but they think that this will be the best investment in the long term: more games, more platforms and a robust cloud infrastructure.
At this point I just want this to be over either way, I don’t really care about the acquisition anymore. It’ll most likely amount to more AAA schlock which is what Sony and their basic bitch audience want and what I don’t care about.
I just want Xbox to work with the studios they have for more projects like Hi-Fi Rush, Pentiment and Grounded.
Sony don't 'have' to agree to the deal as they will no doubt get CoD on their Platform regardless. They KNOW MS want to continue bringing CoD to their Platform with 'Parity' so even if they 'don't' agree to move the deal forward, its not as if they won't get CoD if they don't agree...
Of course, it could backfire and if MS are 'not legally obligated' to release on PS with Parity, they could have 'earlier' access on other platforms and/or Bonus cosmetics not available on PS - especially if Sony also continue trying to screw over their 'competitors' with 3rd Party companies.
Highlar wrote:
Except Sony hasn't been the dominant force for 2 whole decades now. That's a revisionist history. In the 360/PS3 gen Sony was behind and MS were leading them until right at the end where Sony recovered and ultimately only just sold more consoles but lost out in basically every other area (profit, software sales etc.) Sony definitely lost that generation.
But then they took their late momentum into the PS4 gen which combined with the XBO launch meltdown scuppered Xbox, and they are still reeling from those self inflicted blows (shuttering studios, always online, TV, TV, TV etc).
The point is it hasn't been 2 decades of PS dominance and you see how this can change quickly IF a company can put together a good run and stick with it. ABK isn't needed to make that happen.
This also completely ignores Nintendo's dominance in some categories, with the Wii, etc.
@Decoy_Snake because Sony has apparently convinced these bodies that Nintendo does not count/does not compete/is its own market/etc.
Maybe Xbox should have included Nintendo in their charts because they’d only strengthen their case, they’d look even further behind but they didn’t need to because they don’t have a problem with Nintendo.
These very simple pie charts show Sonys dominance over the Xbox brand and they’re doing their best to keep it that way. PlayStations most faithful fans at this point are supporting what they’re also against.
Cant wait to play Diablo 4 on gamepass
MS not including Nintendo in this chart is akin to me taking a poll of consumers’ favorite coffee chain and leaving off Starbucks. Obviously this was intentional because it wouldn’t make for such a stark comparison, but still.
Well, it's been about a minute since Microsoft came out with an article pointing out "Playstation dominance over Xbox." Just in case anyone forgot, Microsoft (and Sony) is here to remind you. I'm really beginning to think that Sony pays Microsoft to say this. It just seems like it is a redundant statement that is said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Meanwhile, Sony is broke and Microsoft isn't. Go figure.
They don't include Nintendo in the charts because of CMA and FTC they defined a new market, where only Playstation and Xbox compete (it's stupid). If Nintendo was in the charts Xbox would be third. Switch sells more than Xbox One and Xbox Series combined.
Also Xbox is only strong in NA and Uk (in the 360 era). In the EU Playstation was always king
@Meehanuk_1987 they are damned if they do damned if they don't ...starfield exclusive ...no we can't have that Sony was going to pay for exclusive... we will buy acti ....oh no u might make cod exclusive
Xbox has no good exclusives ....the problem is others don't really want Xbox to have exclusives .. as was tweeted earlier from Tom Warren as a quote from brad smith
Microsoft has 58 games already running on PlayStation, Sony only has 2 running on Xbox. We've said that if this acquisition goes through, we're happy to make sure that there's a #59 with Call of Duty and no doubt others."
Does that number seem fair at all ????
@Swirly They have to be counting all the Zenimax games that became theirs after that acquisition. If you look at MS studios production previous before that, I struggle to name 58 games period.
I don’t really care about the outcome honestly — I don’t care which megacorp gets richer than the other one, and think they’re both acting like children honestly.
But I gotta admit: when this is all over I’m going to miss the weird period of time when a company that profits off everything from literal war to office software kept coming up with new ways to publicly say that a competitor with 10% of their market cap were destroying them in videogame marketshare. And then their competitor turned around and tried to make themselves an even bigger victim, and the cycle just kept continuing for over a year.
What a weird time.
@Banjo-
You are absolutely correct on Xbox strategy.
I guess currently I’m skeptical to see if it actually works or not.
I know only just over two years in, but to me at the minute, certain results are not in its favour.
I guess time will tell.
@Sakko
Correct in the 360 era in the UK Xbox was strong and bold for a long time.
It’s was the only time really in Xbox history I’ve seen people scramble to buy an Xbox and people talk and brag about having an Xbox with enthusiasm.
Those were the UK Xbox glory days I lived for back then.
Nintendo either exists or doesn't exist depending on the point these companies are attempting to make. It's silly, but if it keeps them from being sucked into this never-ending legal drama, I doubt they care too much.
Sakko wrote:
It depends on what do you mean by king.
PS3: 30.87 (Europe)
Xbox 360: 25.08m (Europe)
I know that Europe includes UK and you said "EU" which doesn't but still UK is a small part of Europe and Europe includes more countries than EU. Xbox 360 wasn't successful just in UK and USA, it was popular worldwide, even in Japan!
@Dezzy70 Looking at all the numbers, Xbox is in a better position than it seems. They are selling 40% of the high-end consoles of the generation (20m) while Sony are selling 60% of them (30m) and that doesn't include Windows and Cloud. The sales number of Microsoft on Steam Store are very high.
I posted my opinion about Xbox Game Studios above but, basically, Microsoft's strategy will pay off when those studios start releasing new games for Series S|X, Windows and Cloud. Those games can only improve the current situation for Xbox. I can't imagine Xbox becoming less popular now. PS, though, I can't see them having the same dominance as last generation. It's not just because of Xbox but also because of Switch. I can see Series S|X and PS5 being 50/50, which is the ideal situation for those "worried" about the future of this industry.
@PsBoxSwitchOwner
Not fully caught up with the comments so apologies if someone already mentioned this and I’m just adding to the redundancy, but adding Nintendo numbers would make it starker. 20% would likely go down to 7%-10% if Nintendo was added to the bucket, and it also would prove you can succeed even if CoD was taken away from your platform, the way it was taken away from Nintendo consoles.
@Banjo- I meant EU has in right now, without UK. At least in the mediterranean countries PS rules. Even when PS3 was crazy expensive. People only wanted PS because how PS2 and PES became popular.
@Sakko I'm not so sure, I can't speak for every country but the numbers reveal a relatively small difference between the two consoles in Europe. I checked your profile and the country is set to Portugal. Part of my family is from Spain (EU). I know that in Spain, PS2 is the best-known console ever after Game Boy but Xbox 360 was just as popular as PS3 there, with Xbox 360 having the edge. FIFA is consistently the best-selling game in Spain.
The reason Nintendo were left off is because the cma and ftc have both argued in their investigations that nintendo is not part of the "high spec console market" This definition of the market has been pushed by them. If anyone actually agrees with that, is another story entirely
What you also have to remember about the 360 era was that it released 'earlier' than the PS3 and at a much lower Price Point too. Sony's PS3 was considered a 'disaster' - over-priced with HDMI, BluRay player etc as well as an over complicated design making it 'difficult' to port to and split RAM too.
Despite that, it still caught up and 'overtook' 360 sales. It may have taken a 'few' years, but this was also the 'era' that CoD was associated with 360 and helped turn CoD into the Halo Killer it became. This is the era when 3rd Party games tended to run better on 360, as well as the Era regarded as MS's 'strongest' from an exclusives perspective, Halo (inc Wars), Forza (inc Horizon), Gears of War, Mass Effect etc all on Xbox as well as CoD DLC 4wks early and all the Marketing deals....
At the start of the 'XB1 era, CoD was still 'associated' with Xbox for the first couple of releases - although that was also when the Popularity was dropping - demanding 'more' innovation with Titanfall coming and then the exo-suit era of CoD.
Its always been the strength of Sony's first party that has carried Sony to the 'dominant' platform - now they also offer VR and a VR exclusives too as a 'Unique Selling Point', a reason to 'buy' into Sony's Platform. If you want to play VR games, Uncharted, Horizon, Last of Us, Spider-Man, Wolverine etc, you'll buy a Playstation because that's the ONLY way you'll be able to play these...
Its not as if CoD or 'ANY' A/B' game, past, present or future would impact on Sony's own Unique Selling Points. If you 'only' play CoD, you'll not be 'forced' to buy a Playstation or miss out on 'some/all' access. You can 'play' on any platform you want - whether that's via streaming or on 'Premium' Hardware to get a 'Premium' gaming experience...
Including Nintendo would only benefit Microsoft's reasoning because it reveals that Switch is the best-selling system (121m) without Activision games but they don't do it because they are not considered competition by the regulators=Sony.
@Bionic-Spencer
Perhaps that's why absolutely everyone in ABK and Microsoft keep saying they wont stop selling the game on PlayStation? Maybe? Possibly? Obviously?
@Moonglow
Lol.
Ms brought it to the topic. It wasn't me.
Appear weak when you're strong. Appear strong when you're weak. You clearly don't get how to grow a company and why they are doing it. Sony is very proud, it's why they are not signing the deal.
Last 2 decades? Lol that was MS's fault. Correcting by buying every publisher is not what anyone asked. NOBODY was asking for that.
@Jenkinss
20% because that's what they want you to see. What about cloud, OS? Is it 20%? Xbox is 2000% bigger. What about those %?
What do you expect Microsoft to do after Sony buying exclusive access or content for games published by ZeniMax, Activision, Square Enix, Warner and Konami? Seriously, what do you expect? It's either offer those publishers more money or acquiring a few.
@Kaloudz
First of all, keep in mind the 70/30 is specific to Europe.
The global distribution, including the US, is nowhere near 2:1, or at least wasnt as of last reported numbers. Usually, when these figures come to X:Y, they try to keep it to whole numbers but it just makes math a bit harder.
Globally, last reports suggest a 1.51x advantage gobally on PlayStation's favor. That's close to a 3:2
In the US, the ratio was 1.247x in PS5 favor, thats closer to 5:4.
In Europe, the ratio was 1.73x in PS5 favor, that's closer to 7:4
In Japan, the ratio was 6.365x, in PS5 favor, thats closer to 6:1
Note this is as of last numbers reported by VGChartz (queue in all people that don't know anything about data gathering trying to nitpick VGChartz) but those numbers cut-off at December, at least as of this writing.
We know MS has reported a much weaker last couple of months, at the same time that PS5 has reported fixing their supply issues, so I would not be surprised if they had a drastic boost on the European market ratio that pushes it to 70/30 (that translates to 2.33x advantage, or 7:3)
@Banjo- FIFA only became more popular in the 2010's. But the 360 numbers don't matter anymore. PS4 destroyed XOne in Europe. And it's going to be hard to turn around. The hype train that every game PS makes is Goty is becoming ingrained in peoples mind.
@GodofCapcom You mean Steam (Which is a monopoly on PC) because Microsoft only makes money with the OS purchase not of every game sold on PC
@GodofCapcom cloud is also beta on Xbox only available to gamepass ultimate, its a complementary service.
Tharsman wrote:
What do you mean exactly?
@Sakko
Epic Games is giving them a little bit of pressure now.
But it's still their OS and they can do whatever they want, including it with gaming.
@Swirly
I think Microsoft is being a bit... fluid, when it comes to this number, and are counting all games that have been published by their acquired studios before they were acquired. I would not count those, personally. If they counted, then Sony has at least 3 games on Xbox (Destiny, The Show, Sunset Overdrive.)
@Sakko
That's not what I heard from people here. Xbox wanted to reach 3 billion gamers, and everytime phil says something, the people eat it ALL up, and are proven wrong over and over again, and they move their goal post if Phil says to move it. Phil has no clue what he's doing. He's copying Netflix. That's it. He isn't clear how gaming is so different from movies and how they're different.
There are people in PS that don't like Jim. Plenty. That's the difference.
@Banjo-
Almost every time VGChartz is sourced, someone that disagrees with the narrative "because none of my friends have xboxes so can't be true, there is no way xbox series sold 20 million units!" will jump in and say they dont trust VGChartz data.
Edit with reply to a post (been catching up slowly)
Like it or not, Rare is been rather successful with Sea of Thieves. Everwild has certainly been stuck in development hell, but I think that's more of a "we revealed it way too early" thing.
Before Sea of Thieves, they basically single-handedly kept the Kinect afloat (as much as more traditional gamers hated it) and drove it's ridiculous success (for as long as that lasted.)
Sadly, Rare has "moved on", and just as we likely wont ever see Naughty Dog do another Jack and Dexter game, we likely never see Rare revisit those older IPs in any form other than advisory over some contracted third party (what we saw with Battletoads.)
@GodofCapcom they can't because they will get sued by EU etc. They tried with windows store and failed miserably. Also if they restrict stores, they will get sued by the regulatory agents. They got sued for having the browser included in the OS
@GodofCapcom Nintendo is not included because the EU and FTC have defined the "high end console" space as only xbox and playstation. Microsoft is happy to point out Sonys position in this twisted reality that the regulators created where Nintendo, pc, and mobile are not "real gaming".
It's like the regulators know that the deal has very little impact on the industry as a whole and only matters if you look at it as one company versus another. Even then it's the "little guy" benefiting from the deal as xbox is pointing out with the figures.
@themightyant
I honestly think they would count Nintendo if any of these agencies would listen to some reason, but Sony convinced them that Nintendo just does not count.
Adding a third platform would simply dilute XBox market share even further, and they would love nothing more than that right now, thats one of the reasons why Sony lobbied to take Nintendo off the discussions.
@Tharsman Yes, perhaps not always up to date but they either use official numbers or distributors' numbers so they are reliable. I was surprised to see that Series S|X is 40% and PS5 is 60% worldwide, excluding Wii U and Switch. Some people claim that PS5 have sold twice as much as Series S|X and that's not true.
@Sakko You made good points about different aspects of the business.
@Somebody Exactly. Mobile, PC and Switch are all ahead of Sony and Xbox. This case is tailor-made for Sony's interests. How can regulators not even consider that Sony is paying third parties to keep games off Xbox? How can't it be relevant? Some of them are acting as Sony's lawyers or Sony's fanboys. That's why Microsoft will sue them if needed. Just imagine for one second what Sony would do if they had more money for more exclusive deals... All third-party games SKIPPING Xbox.
@Banjo-
I personally trust VGChartz, just get aggravated every time a fanboy from either side pops in to try invalidate their numbers and then offer absolutely nothing to replace the data. So have come to add disclaimers like that every time I source vgchartz, just getting ahead of the trolls.
Tharsman wrote:
Except it wouldn't, because Sony are bigger than Nintendo in terms of market share, MS % share goes UP when Nintendo is added i.e.
In terms of Global Market share as of 2021 which seems to be latest data (in fact MS have done even better since 2021 so this is likely higher now).
Sony - 46%
Nintendo - 29%
Microsoft - 25%
Source: Ampere games
@Tharsman It's spin, nothing more, cherry picking data.
E.g. Sony COULD post something like: Current consoles sold
They could even include PC to make themselves SEEM even smaller. It wouldn't be relevant, even if factually it's true.
The point is they can ALL cherry pick data to support their argument, but showing 80:20 EU and 70:30 Global, while deliberately omitting major players, to make the situation SEEM worse than it is, is not useful.
I'm frankly amazed to see so many lapping it up. People should be able to support Xbox but still see this clearly for what it is.
@Tharsman Yes, I know that Rare was who made Kinect great on Xbox 360 and helped other developers with it and I know that Sea of Thieves is successful and I like it and play it but personally I'm disappointed with the lack of Rare games considering that they have awesome IPs: Banjo-Kazooie, Conker, Viva Piñata, Jet Force Gemini, Kameo, Grabbed by the Ghoulies, Blast Corps, Perfect Dark, etc. I didn't say that they aren't doing anything but they aren't doing anything with their excellent IPs except giving advice for Killer Instinct 3 (2013) and Battletoads (2020) that are not my favourite IPs anyway. Even Perfect Dark is being developed by The Initiative, I mean, Crystal Dynamics, since The Initiative were too busy arguing about the game concept.
@GodofCapcom You're twisting numbers in a pathetic way, just like Sony is. Why don't you just bring Excel into it? No one should be allowed to compete with Sony's dominance in video gaming because Microsoft sells a lot of spreadsheet software. Fantastic rationale.
@Fenbops fyi they did include Nintendo in their rebuttal to the FTC weeks ago. Here's one of the slides:
https://i.imgur.com/Sz6qFBg.png
@themightyant your second set of data are global values. If we are discussing the numbers talked about in the article, we are specifically talking about EU only. Maybe can also delve into Japan because the numbers are counted there.
Looking at end of 2022 numbers, EU,
PS5: 63%
Xbox: 37%
If we include Switch:
Switch: 67%
PS5: 21%
XBox: 12%
With the disclaimer that MS is obviously looking at current numbers, and we know that they had a step drop in sales in the last month+. With more recent data, its likely that the EU totals are indeed as stated by MS (although they might also be talking about dollar market share, or game sold unit market share, since 70/30 ratio cant ever equate 20% markert share.)
I can't see a data manipulation you could ever do where you add a third category to a statistic and somehow make the smaller player increase it's market percentage.
The only thing MS gets out of omitting XBox is making Sony look bigger than it is, relatively to the actual market, but they would still make themselves look smaller still. Also, the EU, CMA and FTC all seem to have bought into the argument that Nintendo is on its own lane, and would instantly dismiss anything that accounted for their market share.
@themightyant to reiterate: no, MS has not done better since 2021, they have done worse. It has been covered in this site, they had a few weeks where they outsold PS5 due to supply, but they are not selling as well, especially in EU where you can actually just go into a store and grab a Series X unit because they are not moving too fast.
If we were talking about these numbers back then, I would had agreed with that, since in 2021 it did seem like it was anyone's game. Everyone was selling all they manufactured and and MS had a good publishing year, at the same time Sony had a very weak one.
@themightyant
Sory for the multiple replies, I am starting to realize: They are talking about market share, and this is very likely based on revenue (including their respective cuts of third party game sales,) not sold consoles. Those are numbers we dont have easy access to, I dont think.
@Martsmall Bear in mind that those 58 games is largely made up of games that were already availabl, or already in development, on PS before Microsoft acquired the dev/publisher. If anything it shows how much Microsoft have been buying up multiplat devs compared to Sony buying ones that they have previously had a close working relationship with.
@Tharsman MS said both EU and Global numbers. 80:20 & 70:30. BOTH are in the article. It's also market share, I assume yours isn't and is sales.
But there's several problems with this anyway. Not least WHY do they have a smaller market share? Several factors including
1) they haven't consistently put out as many great exclusive games over the last decade compared to PS/Nintendo. (You may prefer them, but the global audience doesn't)
2) They are still recovering from the Xbox One launch debacle. This impacted their brand heavily. It takes a long time to build trust and only a moment a break it.
3) They shuttered most of their own studios under Mattrick. Rebuilding takes time.
4) Brand loyalty is strong, especially when you have friends, game libraries etc. on one system. That makes #2 even more important.
5) and yes the competition has made it hard for them, as competition typically does.
The first 3 of those are their own fault, the fourth isn't Sony's. They don't automatically deserve an equal market share, they have to work for it an earn it, over years and years. Now they are trying to buy it overnight.
On the second point it's only been the last couple of months that sales on PS5 have vastly exceeded XSX|S. You can now walk into many stores and pick up a PS5 too until then they were very close each month. Hence Xbox was doing better since 2021.
@Tharsman and just to give you another example of spin here, and why we need to be careful whenever ANY of them say anything.
That looks pretty damning right? Microsoft is the one that is publishing their games on Sony right? It appears that way, but again, if we look carefully, it's careful spin.
Look at that list of games and the VAST majority of those 58 are Zenimax/Bethesday games that were on PlayStation BEFORE they got bought. (Doom, Elder Scrolls, Minecraft, Fallout etc.) If Sony were to buy Ubisoft tomorrow for example they would suddenly have around 200+ games on Xbox. Stats can deceive.
A few are from existing licensing agreements, Deathloop, Ghostwire
That leaves a handful that MS have actually published on PlayStation (possibly) of their own free will like:
The point is, if it wasn't clear, you can always deceive with statistics, and this is all SPIN to show themselves in the best light. They aren't publishing loads of games on PlayStation, just as Sony aren't publishing loads of games on Xbox.
Reminds me of the Monty Python SPAM song - Spin, spin, spin, spin...
@themightyant I doubt loyalty has much to do with it. If loyalty was such a big thing among the overall gaming population (ignore internet fanboys, they are a minority of all consumer bases) the XBox One would had not bombed, nor would have the PS3, nor would had the Wii U. If one thing the gaming market has made clear every generation is that loyalty is for fools only.
Why are they where they are is something we can spend days talking about. If the numbers posted are indeed market share based on revenue in the industry, then exclusivity does not mater, they still profit from any game they make and sell on any platform, and it counts. Still, we do can argue they have not put out enough out there to capture enough share, at the same time that they have refused to sign third party exclusives at the same time that Sony is buying out the highest profile third party exclusives they can lockdown.
I don't think we will ever agree on your conclusion, though. There should not be any "you cant grow your market share via acquisitions" rules. Why is it ok to buy exclusivity deals but not just outright buy a company and all its risks?
Why is it ok that Sony bought the largest European publisher of its day to compete with Nintendo and Sega as it started out its gaming business? Just because one happened then and the other now?
@GodofCapcom You need to calm down with the ten page reponses. Don't worry sony will survive, you can buy your sony games and still play CoD. Why are you even here on an xbox site? I don't get ponies complaining... so insecure about there console.
@themightyant
That, I already called them out on. I'm sure they are counting games published by all their acquired studios, not just Zenimax, and I am also sure they are counting sequels (Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, etc) while undermining the fact they had 3 instances of The Show, Destiny 2, Destiny 1 (they likely counting that far back so its fair to count it) and Sunset Overdrive, of the top of my head.
On the Minecraft side, I recall someone, I think Phill, promise Minecraft would remain a multiplatform IP, and they have kept that promise, something they keep referring back to now with their promises about CoD.
End of the day though, this goes back to "why not include Nintendo", and I still think it is only because CMA, EU and FTC will dismiss anything that uses Nintendo as a comparison. If you have unchanging numbers between 2 parties, and add a third, all that will happen is that party A and B will have their percentages both go down, neither of them can possibly go up (well, unless the new third party has a negative market sahre...)
@themightyant You're stating the obvious. It shouldn't take you countless paragraphs to tell us that MS is selling the deal. And why are you on an xbox site? Are you that worried about Playstation? So insecure and defensive about your console that you have to go to a console website you hate, to voice your hate.
@Tharsman You are doing a fine job! Trying to convince Ponies is pointless, they will ALWAYS HATE XBOX. At least xbox fans can tolerate playing on PS, whereas PS fans are so filled with hate they can't believe that anything good is on xbox. LOL its really insane, they should be complaining on a PS site that Sony hasn't shown much beside Spiderman 2... and blocking games from xbox instead of putting good games on PSPlus.
Tharsman wrote:
I'm not sure i'd agree either the XBO and PS3 bombed, they sold less than expected (50 and 87 million), but that's not quite the same thing imho. But that's semantics.
Regardless as for XBO, that tied into my 2nd point (It takes a long time to build trust and only a moment a break it), they royally screwed their own pooch at the initial XBO conference and then didn't have the exclusive software support.
Wii U DID bomb. But then again Nintendo's TV based hardware has never had consistent big sales/loyalty. It's their handhelds that do.
What are the point of antitrust and other commissions then, just sell EVERY company to the highest bidder and be done with it... No! there are valid reasons there are protections in place.
No one said Microsoft can't acquire studios, they have an issue with them buying up whole publishers and making their biggest games exclusive. As I've said 1000 times scale matters.
Apologies on the last point, didn't see you called that one out.
@gogolpoe I might not agree with @themightyant on everything in this conversation, but of all the people that deserve the "go back to a Playstation site" line, I really don't think they are one of them.
Up to this date, they have been very civil, even if they type a lot (I cant accuse anyone of that sin without being a total hypocrite.) I would never call them a Ponny.
@themightyant
Well, even these agencies all agree that the acquisition is all "fine", except for the one CoD IP. It does sound, based on the latest statements, that MS does not really want to entertain the divestment path, so it will be a hard road ahead, but should they come up with a truly enforceable path to keep CoD multiplatform, all agencies are likely to end up accepting the deal. Well maybe not the FTC but that's because right now they are waging war on absolutely every large corporate acquisition, and losing all of those lawsuits...
Edit: but as to what's the point? They usually are there to prevent actual monopolies. If MS attempted to buy out Sony or Nintendo, they would be blocked in a heartbeat.
I would also say if any platform holder attempted to buy Epic Games, they would be blocked due to the impact of controlling the Unreal Engine.
@themightyant
"No one said Microsoft can't acquire studios, they have an issue with them buying up whole publishers and making their biggest games exclusive. As I've said 1000 times scale matters."
Your tone and your icon prove you want to be seen as neutral, but its quite obvious you have a problem with games being exclusive on xbox. Why is that? Should I complain on a Playstation site that FFXVI and Spiderman 2 will NEVER COME to xbox? Those games have been on xbox right? nobody gives a ***** because Playstation are so far up these peoples ass, its taken as fact and neccesity when its business. BUSINESS IS WAR and MS is done playing nice guy.
@gogolpoe Hello random user who just joined a few weeks ago. I'll fill you in, because you seem to be out the loop, we've been here discussing this for years.
Because I have an Xbox.
Oh?
And a Switch, PlayStation and PC. Clue was in the profile pic.
I'm here because i'm a gamer and follow gaming news.
No, not really, i'm worried about the industry and where this mass consolidation, led by Microsoft's spending sprees, is going to lead.
Where's the hate? Just pointing out the facts AS I SEE THEM. You disagree, that's great! Lets discuss... or.... keep up with calling people ponies and all that. You do you.
@Tharsman and I almost always disagree, but I respect chatting to him, and avoiding an echo chamber. As the world should be.
You've got me there. I'm verbose. Serial frequent long poster. There's quite a few of us here, watch out for @NEStalgia
As for stating the obvious, many comments here don't seem to think so and seem to be suggesting MS is telling the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me god. Just giving an alternative opinion.
gogolpoe wrote:
Yes 100%.
Well not on a PlayStation site specifically, if you are just trolling, but YES you should complain. Too many exclusives aren't good, that is my whole point. Glad to see we finally agree on something. hi.
Well too bad, CoD is coming to xbox, PS is going to lose market share. Thats quite obvious. PS has already lost market share because nobody buys AAA games anymore, except for a select few.
I don't need to complain because i wont support Square anymore, and they already dug there own grave, just like Sony has the past few years.
@Tharsman Thanks dude, appreciate the support. Always nice to discuss as Adults. I've got to get back to work. Happy gaming.
One day we can all go back to just enjoying games without worrying about enjoyment being impacted by megacorp tit for tat... maybe.
Be glad when its all over, I think it will go through regardless the drama leading up to it just puts both companies in a bad light. Both are handling the whole thing pretty badly.
@Sakko
Well, good to know. So it seems they take it seirously then. The deal may or may not go through. We'll see.
@Somebody
Xbox has enough studios to compete. I really don't know why they need ABK. There is really no need if you florish those 23 studios and they can get to the fake 3 Billion they want. They can also buy double A and smaller studios.
@Jenkinss
What does excel have to do with it lol?
Gaming is mostly played with Windows. They integrated cloud with gaming. How is it a reach lol?
It's funny how MS told everyone hardware doesn't matter, but now we're stuck with hardware. You are being fooled with whatever goal post Phil tells you to accept.
@gogolpoe
Oh I'm more than secure about on which console I decide to invest, primarly.
@themightyant Not that you need me to say it, but ignore the weird basement-dwelling console fanboys. Some people worship mega corporations to such a startling degree and how much money they make, instead of just enjoying videogames.
Most of them eventually grow up. Some never do.
@Jaxx420 100% agreed.
@GodofCapcom "Oh I'm more than secure about on which console I decide to invest, primarly."
Say the haters on an xbox site. You're not fooling anybody. I may not comment much, but I find it funny, not just you, but a ton of passive aggressive Xbox haters cant deal with a MS that wants to get better at gaming. You mask your lies with fake concern when its super obvious you just hate hate hate xbox.
@EvenStephen7 "Some people worship mega corporations to such a startling degree and how much money they make, instead of just enjoying videogames."
You must be talking about the NPD trolls who announce to the world that Sony is kicking ass every month! or that big sony title, it sold millions! Like anybody actually gives a poop!
@GodofCapcom the numbers kind of speak for themselves Sony has almost 4 times the market share. Xbox has a right to be more competitive.
I don't get why Sony has to have ABK as a 3rd party. They would be fine even if call of duty was leaving the platform which its not. What difference does it make to Sony if they still get their 30% cut of each COD purchase. They just really hate the idea of the other 70% going to microsoft.
@Banjo- I don't think I said Sony had better games tbf, but like you say it is subjective to what your preferences would be.. in every dev you have listed, apart from Deadlabs, turn10, playground.. all of these realiscally had games already in development. So realistically Microsoft had very little involvement in the creation of those games. And developers like the coalition, inherited Gears, which gears 5 wasn't bad.. but it was the worst in the series.. but again, that is subjective.
@EvenStephen7 Thanks, not needed but still appreciated. Can seem lonely pushing against the current, when you feel differently to most of the rest
I'm not jumping into the middle of this bizarre cluster, but the only eyebrow raising piece is the idea that AAA games don't sell. Huh? Like....no matter what platform you look at how could anyone conclude AAA games don't sell right after Hogwarts, Elden Ring, GoW, amidst Starfield hype, pre-BotW2 hype, while Sega says Sonic Frontiers outperformed expectations, while PS fans are arguing that VR2 has no games because they're not AAAs, and while the world is arguing about the importance of CoD? That just doesn't make sense on any platform. AAAs seem to sell pretty darned well across the board....
Removed - flaming/arguing
@gogolpoe
Well I had a 360, so that's on MS they made me hate them. It is what it is.
And no. I just want better games and a better industry for it. Not services with battle passes, mtx, cut content, no really next gen games that push the limit because the service isn't profitable enough.
And It's good to listen to the other side of the coin once in a while. Makes you smart.
@Somebody
I know Sony will be fine, but they want to be more fine ish. That's all it is.
That market difference would be closer if MS knew how to manage video GAMES.
@GodofCapcom "I know Sony will be fine, but they want to be more fine ish. That's all it is."
I love your optimism for Playstation! Counting that PSVR2 is selling like hotcakes and they have countless 1st party games coming besides ones owned by Disney/Marvel, Sony is hitting it out of the park! They don't need to cry for CoD every night, they can manage videogames and make that fps mp blockbuster!
@GodofCapcom Sony pays money for a non competitive environment. I read your comment and can only think that you didn't read the article. Sony has had a vice grip over Microsoft paying for marketing advantages that lead to a practical monopoly over Microsoft in the console market. Sony pays to keep games off Game Pass or the Xbox all together so they can boast the very image provided in this article showing that Sony regardless of this acquisition is still going to hold this advantage. I have zero sympathy for Sony in this situation. They sound like a bunch of whiney children throwing a tantrum. Not a good look.
@iplaygamesnstuff
If MS made good exclusives, the gap wouldn't be so far wide that Sony can get away with exlclusivity.
And they don't own Square Enix. SE can say no. MS can bid them out. MS also does exclusivity deals.
May I remind you the ps3/360 era. Xbox can do something about it.
I really don't get how owning cod vs making a deal with cod is on the same level. People really aren't thinking this through well.
I see MS as the whiney one. Daddy please help me correct my errors. We can't compete. We can't compete!
Not a good look is not giving something groundbreaking for 10 years.
@GodofCapcom I think you are in the minority with this line of thinking. Try and read the article.
@iplaygamesnstuff
Lol. Whatever you want to believe.
I bet the dozens of millions of cod ps users agree.
@Decoy_Snake cauee nintendo doesnt count as a competitor, seriously the switch is a second system to probably 70% of owners.. meaning if a game comes out on the switch and either ps5 or xbox then unless they want the portability its getting bought on the other systems....switch is a handheld system that happens to be able to play on the tv....even nintendos own docs have said this in the past that most play portable...
@Banjo- rather than spending $70bn on an entire publisher that they don't really need why don't they play Sony at there own game? There's nothing stopping Microsoft making these kinda deals like they did very successfully during the 360 generation.
@Blessed_Koz To completely ignore the market leader - which Nintendo is right now in terms of sales - is being done purely to push the narrative that they can't compete with Sony despite having more resources on hand.
I have no dog in the race, I just like video games and have never been fussed who makes them. But can you imagine where Microsoft would be if they spent their 60 odd billion on some of the brilliant IP's they already own instead of trying to buy loads more. Food for thought eh.
@Decoy_Snake I took a break from the ABK drama but I think that Microsoft's strategy relies on nurturing themselves as a publisher and services provider. Sony wastes millions in getting temporary deals and Microsoft counterattacks acquiring studios. The best example is that Sony paid for keeping ZeniMax games away from Xbox and then Microsoft bought the publisher. Microsoft's strategy is much riskier but better in the long term.
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